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How can one have a son that looks like a Greek God?

This article is writen from the perspective of the typical man.

Suppose that a man wants a son that grows up to look similar to the Greek God shown below.

Apollo Belvedere

The typical man doesn't look anything like a Greek God.  More specifically, he lacks the combination of a projecting forehead, regressed jaws, very prominent nasal bones (but not the nose tip) and fine facial features.  He never got to choose his parents.  However, having a son is a different matter.  The mother can compensate for the father’s deficits.  The problem is that the typical woman whose masculinized version would approach the looks of a Greek God would not look feminine because of features such as a projecting forehead, prominent nasal bones and regressed jaws.  As an example, look at the following woman.  The very first picture makes one guess that the woman most likely isn’t feminine.  She is somewhat masculinized, but still looks impressive to me, and this is coming from someone whose isn't very appreciative of masculinization in the looks of women.  Something about a combination of fine and chiseled features along with a shape shifted toward that of a Greek God/Goddess is impressive.

Corinna from femjoy

As one would expect, the woman’s physique isn't that feminine either.  A video will better reveal this than posting a bunch of pictures showing her from multiple angles.  She goes by the name Corinna at femjoy.

If you are reading this then you either have javascript turned off or do not have the flash plugin installed. Get Flash.

Download video (flv, 37 MB).

A woman with facial features similar to Corrina's, i.e., suitable to the task of increasing the likelihood of bearing a son who will grow up to look like a Greek God, but with a feminine physique or a notably more feminine physique would be difficult to come across, and if there is such a woman reading this then may the Gods bless you but you will be cursed if you don’t send your pictures to me.

This article is about a reproductive task where a feminine woman will typically be no match for a somewhat masculinized woman as far as sons go.  Conversely, a somewhat masculinized woman would typically be no match for a feminine woman when it comes to bearing a daughter epitomizing feminine beauty.  This is the accursed sexually antagonistic selection problem, and it has no natural solution.



feminine woman=feminine daughter
masculine woman=masculine daughter
feminine woman=feminine son
masculine woman=masculine son

FIRST of all, sorry for my bad english.

You are telling us how girls who don' fit in your "feminine" shapes are worthless and not worth being loved or to love!? that's how i get it. See, if i compare myself to your "feminine woman" i think i have feminine body, except fot the breasts which are rather small.. my face is both feminine and masculine. i have serious and loving relationship with a MAN very straight one, who of course, like every man and woman, questioned his sexual orientation once in his childhood. but he is more straight than most man i know, who fall for all those manlike supermodels you describe, he likes widw hips and full botties, he doesn' care much bout breast as long they exist and are not ugly-shaped. he gives mine his full attention.

i'm a bit of bisexual, with many homosexual experiences, maybe that's why i don't find models unattractive? because i'm bisexual? so they all should be with girls or with bisexual men?
i mean, they have features of both gendres, so they can't be good enough for straight oriented men?!

i think sexual attraction is more than that!

ofcourse it is about physichs, but it is about smell, about brains, about getting along...

i mean, you are right and agree with you when you're talking about extremes, and anorexia because of media...

but attraction and stuff.... you are blowing of self-esteem of skinny and not-so-feminine girls who can't do anyting about it while are you pumping it up for the big-boobed and wide-hipped girls.

and yes ofcourse i wish i had bigger boobs!!

but i can' be perfect, and what is perfect?


This is not a rhetorical question. I would really like to know your answer.


I am sure you are attractive. Don't let this website make you question yourself. This website contains so many flaws and mistakes that I will not even try to list them here. No, this guy does not speak for most straight men; he just thinks he does.

well thank you. i'm not questioning myself. i think some other girl can question herself. just like high fashion which is telling females to be super-skinny this guy erik is also telling us to be the opposite. but someone cannot just change him/herself and his body shape only because they are told how should they look like to be attractive.

Erik is terrible just like all those gay fashion makers are.

krisa said:
You are telling us how girls who don’ fit in your “feminine” shapes are worthless and not worth being loved or to love!? that’s how i get it.

That's not how I'm reading Erik. Though maybe I interpret him differently because I've read most of his writing, and because I am a man and less likely to take it personally since this website is not about the shape of my body.

I interpreted Erik saying in this post that the woman is attractive despite having somewhat masculinized features.

In reading Erik's writings as a whole, the sense I'm getting is this:

The role of masculinization in female attractive is a matter of degree. A bit of masculinization can make a woman actually sexier than otherwise (I don't remember the link, but I'm sure Erik will provide it when he responds). But as you look at women who are more and more masculinized, there are less and less typical straight men who are attracted to them, or the men who are most attracted to them are less likely to be straight.

Erik is not saying that masculinized women "not worth being loved or to love." Rather, he is saying that less typically straight men will be attracted to them. That doesn't mean that there won't still be a decent amount of men who find them attractive, and if a particular masculinized women can find someone in that pool of men, then she has nothing to worry about.

Women with a moderate level of masculinization can still be attractive to many men, even typically straight men... they just won't be able to reach the elite levels of attractiveness to most straight men to justify having them in modeling or in beauty pageants. That is a bar that most women, feminine or not, will not reach, so no woman should feel bad that she can't reach it.

The ultimate judge of your attractiveness is what happens in your interactions with men in the real world. If you have men in your life who are into you, then you have no reason to worry about your looks. There are plenty of women, even with masculinized features, who are plenty attractive enough to find a man that they can be happy with. These women shouldn't feel bad just because, as Erik points out, they aren't at the elite level of attractiveness to most men that they should be doing fashion modeling or beauty pageants.

but attraction and stuff.... you are blowing of self-esteem of skinny and not-so-feminine girls who can’t do anyting about it while are you pumping it up for the big-boobed and wide-hipped girls.

Erik thinks in a way that is rigorous and logical, but don't quite know how to communicate his ideas in a way that is emotionally aware. That is why he was surprised, for instance, when someone like Melisande was hurt when he described her as masculinized, even while acknowledging that she was beautiful (though he seems to be becoming increasingly aware of this issue).

As I've suggested to him, it might help to have a disclaimer towards women reading the website that tells them what his ideas do and don't imply about them, their looks, and their attractiveness towards men. I know he mentions these subjects in a couple places, but I think he needs to put something from a link on the front page, with a blinking red 36pt font. Well, maybe that's a bit extreme, but you get the idea.

So wait Erik, I didn't quite catch that. Maybe I was unable to grasp your wording, but is Corinna physically feminine or not? I remember asking this question a while ago (is this your answer?).


Krisa: I am not concerned about bad English in the comments; my concern is with the comprehension, and those with bad English are likely to misunderstand this site. You have failed to understand this site. This site is not concerned with the worth of women or who deserves to be loved.

I am not telling models or those with models’ looks to be sexually involved with specific types of individuals.

If you go through the attractive women section, you will encounter some small-breasted women; I just added one; see the previous article. Femininity does not lie in large breasts, and I am myself not into breasts; if a woman is feminine I care not whether she has small or large breasts, and if I were forced to choose, I'd prefer medium.

This site is about brining feminine beauty to the limelight. It is not about telling women how they should look.

It is inevitable that some women will be upset by it, but most people naturally harbor feminine beauty standards and I am promoting a natural and healthy standard since it cannot be acquired by indulgence in negative health behaviors; the goal is to have more feminine women among models and beauty pageant contestants.

Your poor understanding also reflects in your posting the comment here, where I am talking about an attractive somewhat masculinized woman and arguing that she is better suited to a reproductive task compared to the typical feminine woman.

Hugh Ristik: I will consider placing a prominent link regarding self-esteem issues.

Whipped honey: You have your own definition of femininity, which makes the typical woman feminine. So why ask what proportion of women are feminine?

Physical femininity within a sex is straightforward. Regarding masculine-feminine variation as normally distributed (Gaussian distribution), women deviating from the mean would either be at the masculine or feminine side of the mean. Therefore, the upper limit of the proportion of women who will be feminine within their sex is close to 50%. Since physical features are shaped by many factors other than sex hormones, it will usually be difficult to visually rank women’s femininity if they are close, i.e., it would be difficult to separate values around the mean, around which the majority of women cluster. It should be easy to distinguish those separated by at least one standard deviation (S.D.). So it is safe to say that at least 16% of women are visually feminine within their sex. If I consider the threshold of the distinguishability to be 0.5 S.D., then about 31% of the women will be visually feminine. So basically, the proportion of women who are feminine is close to 50%, but upon visual inspection, this proportion is at least 16% and likely close to 30%.

Prasiddha: Corrina is not feminine, but she is attractive to me nevertheless.

well, no, i don't think i understand it poorly, i posted here because it was the first place i could post, and i am sorry, i know it doesn't belong here. and i'm sorry i wrote my post before i read you page more thoroughly.
look, whatever you try to promote, you cannot avoid trashing "the other side", just like the fashion world is trashing more "feminine" looking women.
some girls will definitely feel better because of your attempts to promote feminine look, but other won't, that is what i'm trying to say.

it is very good that you support your claims with scientific facts, but sometimes you are to subjective. like here:

you're comments are sometimes even insulting.

and when you response to our comments you can be a bit insulting,too, but i understand that since some people attack so harshly and are insulting themselves :>

And one more thing.
If media and commercials are showing us thin girls, women will pinch themselves in their hips and stomach and thighs wishing they were smaller.

If more feminine girls were shown in commercials, all other women would look their non-feminine parts in a mirror, wishing they had bigger boobs, smaller waist, wider hips.

If a very feminine looking girl falls in love with a boy from her neighborhood and that boy prefers thinner girls, she will wish she was thinner and even though the feminine girl might be more popular amongst other boys than all the thin girls that this boy (she felt in love with) ever went out with.


That's how live goes.

And yes we (all of us) are very unfortunate that we live in a time where media is raping us with anorexic, masculine looking women with breast implants.

But i hope that times will change.

Like it did when
shoulder paddings,
white socks,
and some other fashion disasters were popular.

I think all over our history there were all kinds of women represented as beautiful,
small breasted,
big breasted,
wide hipped

And i think anorexic looking women are less popular and less often presented in media than they were 5-10 years ago.

i think things are getting better already.

because corsets were unhealthy
an being anorexic is unhealthy,too
just like being obese-

wearing high heels can have negative results in health,too,
but it is sexy as hell
isn't it?


Just trying to get your whole picture.

I think you should also address the issue as to what sort of male it takes to produce a feminine woman.

this website is so worthless, whats the point, telling people what is feminine or what isnt, you know what, im gonna make my own website about what is musculine? a guy having 10 inch penis, having a six pack, being taller than 5"10 , and having a nice chunck of change. if you dont fit in with these description , than you arent musculine at all!

Erik : I have seen a girl from half caucasian and native american Indian from the north of canada looks nordic ( completely platinum blonde hair and blue eyes) than your models above. I wanted to show her picture to u but afraid her mom will not like that.

A son who looked like a Greek god could father any amount of children. The most attractive daughter would be far more limited, however for much of evolutionary time in northern Europe men died off; being around as a live provider was a big selling point while the women had to look special to get a mate. This might lead one to think that the looks of men in northern Europe have been far less important than that of women until very recent times
The risk of having a plain daughter would have outweighed the benifits of a greek god son (doesn't hold true for a polygamous society) The article does not seem to take into account the tendency for offspring to favour the father's looks and physical size -Insulin Like Growth Factor 2 - over the mother, (who contributes the personality mainly).
Mothers can compensate for the fathers looks to a lesser extent than the article suggests.

If I remember rightly genes for physical size are only properly expressed if they come from the father, eg the father may be small but he can pass on his unexpressed genes to make his son (or daughter) large. If the height of the mother is not fully reflected in the son it might explain lack of interest in a womans height

I find this website interesting, and i think the views about the more masculine a woman looks the less attractive she becomes to straight men is true.
I know this because i have a very typically masculine face(square robust jawline) people have mistook me for a man in drag many atimes, and almost everyday men will make awful comments about how they think that im a tranny.
But i ve got used to this,as its true. I dont really like the way we have to have ,'typical', masculine and feminine ideals, and how we feel obliged to pigeon hole people into these ideas, and if they dont fit we reject them.
most people i see have masculine and feminine features, but that doesnt make them abnormal, and they shouldnt be looked at distainlyfully.

eric, I want to start a website like this only pointing out what masculine features are desirable in males and what feminine features are actually desirable in males. Yes, I am very much attracted to very masculine pretty boys. Anyways, I was wondering if you can give me some tips of how to do research of what makes a man masculine or feminine, etc. so I can have some research on my website like you do? Also, if you can tell me how to get good pictures or maybe get me some? Thanks! I'll send you my email if you decide to help!

Teresa: You should not get from this site that the more masculine a woman, the less attractive she becomes to straight men. Starting from feminine and attractive women, you will need to masculinize them somewhat to make them sexier to heterosexual men. There is an upper limit beyond which increasing masculinization will diminish a woman’s appeal to straight men.

You have described a square robust jawline as masculine. Masculinization causes squaring of the chin, not the entire lower jaw in front view. And whereas more masculine will tend to be more robust, robusticity and masculinization are not the same phenomena.

I don’t find people being rejected because they don’t fit within masculine or feminine ideals; it’s more like people are not idolized or admired if they don’t match an ideal or desired state. Ideals are things that people aspire to, and people aspire to things they don’t possess. One may encounter disdain if one is far from what others consider desirable, but the experience depends on the kind of people one comes across. Some have strong likes and dislikes; others not so strong. Some can’t help teasing those with physical features they dislike; others keep it to themselves. I don’t have a dislike for masculinized women, and difficult as it is to try to promote feminine beauty without coming across as someone who has a problem with masculinization in women, I don’t think I have done a good job of conveying my dislike for the impact of the aesthetic preferences of homosexual fashion designers without having it rub off on the individual fashion models I have addressed.

Clara: You will find this entry on masculinity-femininity in men useful for setting up a website like this that addresses male attractiveness. Many studies cited within this website address how shape varies with masculinization and feminization, and you can use them.

You can find many masculine male models by browsing mainstream modeling agencies and the contestants in beauty pageants for men (e.g., Mr. World, Manhunt International). You should also look up the Chippendales dancers.

You can find several suitable nude male models by browsing the archives of Playgirl magazine and looking up websites of male nudes, which usually cater to homosexual men. Masculine male nudes are strongly appealing to many male homosexuals, and you will not have a problem with finding masculine nudes. Sites offering male nudes will often be paysites with an affiliate program. If you have a website then you can join the affiliate programs and get free promotional materials, which you can legally display at your site without running into copyright issues, thereby avoiding having to pay for the images.

You should also use pictures of bodybuilders. Bodybuilders are notorious steroid abusers, and you would definitely want to carefully evaluate their skeletal features, as shown in the linked article, to select the more masculine ones. You may want to seek among amateur bodybuilders (e.g., Mr. America and Mr. Universe competitions) for less freakish looks, or look up professional bodybuilders if that is what you like (Mr. Olympia, Night of the Champions, Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic, etc.).

There is one realm of scientific studies that you may have a problem with, namely masculinity preferences in the male face. Whereas studies addressing the physique clearly reveal a preference for above average masculinity in men, face studies have shown results all over the map. I will be glad to do a write up for your site to clarify this topic and help you in other ways except for browsing pictures of nude men. Email me about your planned site and I will see what I can do to help.

BSP: I have addressed – before you left your comment – what kind of men it takes to produce feminine women; the link is also in the article; the odds are greater if the men do not have above average masculinity.

Whipped honey: Regarding the percentage of men that are masculine, the situation basically mirrors my description of the percentage of women that are feminine.

Krisa: I removed some of the insulting comments on the page addressing the sexy supermodels about 7 months after your comment above. Sometimes there is a fine line between unflattering and insulting, and it is difficult to say that the Emperor has no clothes without being seen as insulting.

Regarding anorexic-looking women being shown less often in the media over the past 5-10 years, the reverse is true for the fashion media.

I don’t think all kinds of women have been represented as beautiful at various times within recorded history. You might want to read about body weight preferences regarding women in medieval Europe.

High heels have some negatives, but these can be reduced by using insolia inserts or something equivalent.

Roy: Most genetic variation in height/looks results from additive genes and hence it is unlikely that there is a tendency for offspring to favor the father’s looks except for some conditions involving genomic imprinting, but then there are scenarios when such conditions result solely from the mother’s contribution . Men have some Y genes related to size/height for which there are no female equivalents, but their contribution is limited to male offspring.

Regarding Peter Frost on polygyny, for all his work, it turns out that the effective breeding females-to-males ratio is/has been higher among Europeans than sub-Saharan Africans, and please note – which you didn’t in a more recent comment on this issue, which I will get to – that a West African sample was included:

You said that “the looks of men in northern Europe have been far less important than that of women until very recent times.” We have discussed this elsewhere, where I said that women will lower their standards if they have reduced choice, but they are still women and hence will be more selective than men in an analogous scenario, and a number of women will take advantage of the greater sexual freedom available to them when there is an excess of women by having their children fathered by men more attractive than their husband.

"Very recent times" was yet more carelessness on my part, should be 10000 years ago.
I read several years ago that paternal imprinting is the main factor for looks and size in children of either sex whereas maternal imprinting is mainly for personality. I think it is easily observed that most children resemble the looks of their father or father's side of the family, which might have implications for cheating women.

X CHROMOSOME IS EXTRA DIVERSE (Science News) explains the specific study for those too stoopid to understand. I found it very helpful.
As I said it is well known that the Basques are closely related to the Irish. I posted a link to the Irish Y chromosome months ago. (Do West coast Irishmen look as if they are low on T.)
Steve Jones mentioned the same data the other day (Telegraph)in support of his contention that evolution is coming to an end. Prescient or what?
The Senegal figure was the highest among Africans. The San do not have black skins or a powerful build. I'm honest enough to admit that going by this study as far as I can understand it the Mandelka are not far ahead of the Basques in a measure of polygyny. The time frame might be confusing matters the Irish data are said to be accounted for by an early medieval king.

I oughtn't to have been so insouciant about Hammer et al, from what others are saying, it does include data from the very population (Senegal) which should be a case in point for the theory however the results are totally negative. Still:-

"Karl Popper pointed out that given the statement 'If p then q' and you do p and q does not follow, then you have disproved the statement; and he argued that the real method of science is not to try to verify statements but to disprove them. A surprising number of scientists, including very successful ones, have expressed agreement with him. But Poppers's argument only holds in the abstract world of pure logic, in which the statement 'If p then q' implies that q will always follow p, whatever all the other circumstances are, so that we are not allowed to bring in some other disturbing factor. ... But the world which science tries to to analyse is not the pure world of logic; it is the rough and untidy world of actual happenings. Suppose we have a hypothesis like 'If a match is put to twigs (p) a fire starts (q)'. Quite often, when one does this (p) the fire actually does start (q). But again , sometimes the twigs are wet, or something; and this does not completely disprove the suggestion that matches have something to do with starting fires. In the real world of science we can never have statements which are 100% true in all circumstances. The mistake made...-- (by) those who asked for verification and those who would settle for falsification-- is that they demand 100% certainty; and that is something we can never have about the real world. All science can do is to show that some things are very likely, others unlikely. Its picture of the world is more like a portrait drawn by a painter than like a precise theorem in logic" (CH Waddington 1977)

Imprinted genes, IGF-2, personality The Imprinted Brain Theory

Didn't have long to wait for a study to come up with different conclusions to Hammer et al We conclude that a sex-biased process that reduced the female effective population size, or an episode of natural selection unusually affecting chromosome X, was associated with the founding of non-African populations.
Too much flaming and posting of photos in the comments at this site IMO, I can hardly follow the threads anymore, anyone new to this site will be lost.

RE: the study mentioned in the last post by "Roy". I find it disturbing that the two groups were able to come to such radically different conclusions, but the second study doesn't support Frost, either.

Although polygyny (males having multiple female mates) is a sexbiased
process that has been observed in some human populations2, it
would predict a rise in the ratio above 3/4, which is opposite to what
we observe.

[. . .]

We have shown that there was a period of accelerated genetic drift
on chromosome X associated with the human dispersal out of Africa,
which was qualitatively different from what occurred during the subsequent human dispersals into Northern Europe and East Asia.

[. . .]

The ratio of the tMRCA
between chromosome X and the autosomes in West Africans, 0.763 ±
0.026, is consistent with the expected 3/4

This could be completely irrelevant, but I felt inclined to comment, as a masculine-looking female. My parents were paragons of masculinity and femininity (i.e. my father was ultra-masculine and my mother was ultra-feminine - I have never seen a woman more feminine than my mother). However, I've ended up more closely resembling my dad, as have my brothers (yes, of course I am resentful). This would imply that femininity isn't as dominant as masculinity when it comes to expressing itself. Interestingly, I've looked through the photo albums of my dad's family in previous generations, and it's the same thing all along - very masculine men (at least one son of each generation has been in military service), and masculine and plain-looking women (like myself). There must be a genetic tendency to it - I certainly hope I have sons because my husband is masculine too!

Just to reassure female visitors - there is nothing to say that just because you may look masculine you are unattractive. I am probably more masculine-looking than any of you and I've attracted many men, because of my attitude and personality! Obviously some men have been derogatory to me in the past, but as these tend to be the fat, unattractive ones I really don't mind ;)

I look "like a Roman" God only a bit more feminine. I have the bone structure of those typical Romans though and it is probably because I have Roman ancestry, not Italian ancestry, Roman. I don't think I am your mainstream beauty, but I do believe I am beautiful and intelligent. Am I masculine? Yes I have masculine aspects. My nose is a bit hooked. Am I intelligent? Yes, or at least my IQ score tells me so. Can I run faster than you? Yes, thanks to my "masculine" body characteristics. Do I still have big breasts and a curvy but fit and strong body? Yes. I can break blocks with my fist and do the splits. I have a tiny waist (25) compared to my hips(34) and am of average height, my nose bridge is tall and high, I have naturally golden hair (light ash blonde/platinum when I was younger. My eyes can appear black or hazel depending on lighting. I have a round face that is often mistaken for oval. I have a big skull(very broad and sort of flat).

Can a masculine woman be beautiful? Yes. You just have to look at the whole package.

I am not trying to be conceided, I am just trying to prove a point. Stop feeling bad if you are a more masculine woman. I am not "really" masculine, but I do have my masculine features (hooked nose). However, I take what I have and make the best of it. I refuse to get plastic surgery. My boyfriend takes me for what I am. If you don't like my nose than that is fine. However, I usually get to pick and choose who I want to be with. I never had a problem with selection.


So I want to have beautiful daughters, but I am attracted to really really masculine men. Can I still have a beautiful daughter if I have one with a really masculine man? I myself am very feminine, at least according to what I learned from your website. So if I am feminine can I still have a feminine daughter with a masculine man? I don't like the feminine men:(.

Oh and do you think lots of men go for women like this because of their subconcious desire to have strong looking sons? Can't a feminine woman beat out a woman like this? I mean can't a feminine woman still have a masculine son if the father is masculine? I thought feminine woman always win over the masculinized ones.

Eric: High heels have some negatives, but these can be reduced by using insolia inserts or something equivalent.

I worked in woman's shoes for a long while. I am pretty sure there is a problem with most woman's shoes, fashionable or not. The ankle support inst there which results in a lot of issues in that area especially in the golden years.

I think allot of this "masculinity" in women is pretty subjective it reads like allot of art historical text from the Italian early modern period. you are also assuming there is a quintessence of womanhood... and manhood(our societal notion of this really comes from allot of gay sources if you look closely.) ... this branding is too similar to the fashion hierarchy to me.

I think you are totally over looking what chanel did to the fashion world too, historically that seems to be the start of your masculinization, not so much her, but 20 century modernism ( flapper look, abandoning the courset for jersey material that is more akin to active wear... i think that the binary approach to gender is becoming pretty suspicious. It is probably of more use to the hard sciences.

I think the aproximation that men can be feminine is an utter failure of binary thinking. Gay men are equated with the female gender but i really dont draw the parallel between women ( and if you are going to cite 4th wave feminism's gynomisation of races other then white and queer persona as a basis to categorized male persons as feminine you are falling prey to the failure of binary thinking as well, I would say that it is a seperate construct more closely affiliated with high culture you see it alot in celebrities like the Hilton girl too.
But i think calling this "feminine" you are seeing in gay men (and i am seeing in some women that are conspicuous consumers) is not a product of queer culture either. Queer culture such as the Leather movement(which has its own problems steming from a binary effort to distiquish itself from the gay-as-fairy steriotype[which arose in pre-christian Rome but really matured in pre-kinesy era judeo-christian-muslim world])participants and early segment of the lesbian movement were anti-high fashion as it is a construction that comodifies women and really capitalizes off of the "pink pound." Gay identing as feminine serves as a counterbalance to help perpetuate exhausting role of being the pilar of society placed squarely on white hetero/sexist roman ideology -(and those instrumental to their political motives to secure leadership) as creators/conquerors of society. Postmodernism seems to be calling into question our progess as it drags like a nice long painful audit. Probably the most successful method of power structuring is absolute democracy which would be initially so hazardous as things exist today

i think your willingness to blame all gays for fashion is also suspicious lesbian culture seems to be pretty opposed. and the high end affiliations of gay culture are really not with out really specific agents more related to "heterosexual-elite" patronage

This gets into all sorts of arguments about the ruling bodies with in society

I think your bit partisan... yes fashion is bad, but so is this typification, and idealization... it is pretty alienating and strangely fictional kind of like the academic autopsy of baroque art or werewolves

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