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Thu, 01/04/2007 - 23:05 Erik The transsexual parade otherwise known as the Victoria’s Secret lingerie show: part 6

Kristin: Only the first woman that Adriana is compared to is a Northern European. Anyway, trying to come up with an ethnicity match in this case is an unnecessary headache because I have to figure out Adriana’s ethnic composition and find feminine women of a similar ethnic composition for starters. The problem is confounded by multiple deviations, some random, from the expected average of parental face shapes when the parents are indigenous to separate continents. You say that Adriana is a third-to-half sub-Saharan African, but judging by her face shape, this appears highly unlikely, and even if it is true, there are surely people having an ethnic composition similar to Adriana’s but ethnically different looking faces that are unambiguously indicative of substantial sub-Saharan African ancestry. I ignored Adriana in the “sexy fashion models?” section because I did not want to deal with an ancestry mess, but since she has to be addressed in the context of a Victoria’s Secret model and this entry is not about a comparison of attractiveness, I can address the masculinity-femininity of Adriana’s appearance by comparing her to women of other ancestries.

As far as Adriana’s skin color goes, I have seen candid and paparazzi pictures of her where she has light skin, i.e., the woman is naturally light-skinned. She can develop a dark tan, but then there are plenty of normally-pasty-white Europeans who can become brown given enough sun.

Sandy: With respect to masculine-feminine variation in face shape, I have spelt things out, in detail, on the “feminine vs. masculine” page; the problem for some people, though I don’t know about you, is the use of technical words/jargon on this page, which cannot be avoided if one is to maintain brevity. A more layperson-friendly approach would involve expanding this page into a multi-page section with a lot more diagrams accompanied by commentary and less jargon, but this requires a lot of work, is not necessary, and I have more pressing needs to attend to for some time to come. Anyway, the three main facial features contributing to the somewhat masculinized appearance of Adriana are her chin (large), forehead bone (brow region masculinized) and nose tip (too wide; minor contribution).

To illustrate, if one were to remove the forehead and chin cues from two of her pictures shown above, then even with an unmanipulated nose, she would start looking normal-to-feminine:

Adriana Lima

Adriana Lima

Basically, if you absorb the contents of the “feminine vs. masculine” page, it would take you a few seconds to assess in detail what makes someone masculine or feminine, and you will be able to perform the requisite manipulations mentally instead of having to cut out some details of the face using an image editor.

I agree that Adriana is appropriately described as “average” given her ethnic background, but my point is that the woman is not feminine enough for high-profile lingerie modeling.

Madeline: I agree that Gigi is unimpressive (except for the mammaries and hourglass shape); she looks like a mother. I posted her pictures to mess around with you. On the other hand, I have not argued that European women are the most feminine; the section that you refer to addresses, in part, the masculinity-femininity of physical appearance, which is not to be confused with actual masculinity-femininity, which in turn is something that would need to be assessed in terms of sex steroid profiles, steroid receptors, etc. The arguments in the “beauty pageants” section stand unless you or someone else can refute them.

phred: As far as the sources of the ‘beauty "information"’ go, they are peer-reviewed science and medicine journals, not pornographic sites. It has been necessary to source many pictures from adult-oriented sites but only some of these sources are pornographic sites.

To say that Adriana has gained weight does not mean that she has become “fat”; she has gained weight compared to her slender teenage self.

Thu, 01/04/2007 - 22:54 Erik More evidence against the "clothes hangar" argument

Kristin: The faces of the women would obviously get them rejected...for not being masculine enough. On the other hand, your comment about average women is irrelevant; models are not randomly drawn from the general population, and one could always design clothing to fit narrow shoulders. Besides, there is a substantial non-British element in America: German, Scandinavian, etc.

Thu, 01/04/2007 - 21:43 phred The transsexual parade otherwise known as the Victoria’s Secret lingerie show: part 4

1)Alessandra wouldn't delete your link if you didn't call her masculine, boyish and say things like: "Alessandra, on the other hand, cannot avail of my masseuse services unless she were to pay a decent amount in advance."

2)The girl you compared her to looks like she is recovering from being shot in the face by a repeating BB gun, not a "woman".

Thu, 01/04/2007 - 21:05 phred The transsexual parade otherwise known as the Victoria’s Secret lingerie show: part 6

sorry about the double posts.

What weight? Adriana does not look fat in the least.

Thu, 01/04/2007 - 21:01 phred The transsexual parade otherwise known as the Victoria’s Secret lingerie show: part 6

I have to agree with madeline: European women are not the most feminine. That almost sounds racist.

And Erik, I really wish you would find a source for your beauty "information" other than pornographic sites.

Thu, 01/04/2007 - 17:00 madeline The transsexual parade otherwise known as the Victoria’s Secret lingerie show: part 6

kristin, if you've ever visited the "beauty pageants" part of this site, it's obvious that erik insists european women are the most feminine (which i find to be complete bullshit).

Thu, 01/04/2007 - 12:23 Kristin The transsexual parade otherwise known as the Victoria’s Secret lingerie show: part 6

basically erik--- i think you should start comparing her atleast to someone of mixed african descent--which would apply to most afro americans--who are typically of asiatic, eurpean AND african descent, countless darker hispanics, etc. why do u insit on comparing people who re obviously not white to white women?

Wed, 01/03/2007 - 20:11 phred Nonheterosexual vs. heterosexual male preference for petite women: Alessandra Ambrosio vs. Camille

Oh, and one more thing: Alessandra's breasts are assuredly not fake. She has said before that she hates plastic surgery.

Wed, 01/03/2007 - 20:07 phred Nonheterosexual vs. heterosexual male preference for petite women: Alessandra Ambrosio vs. Camille

if designers thought these women (Alessandra, Adriana, and Jessica) were masculine, they wouldn't be where they are now. And by the way, about your pictures of that Andrea girl (yes, girl)from glamour.cz, The Czech Republic is notorious for young ladies voluntarily being prostitutes.

Wed, 01/03/2007 - 00:18 madeline Does beauty lie in the eye of the beholder?

although skinniness is what you refer to as "socially unacceptable", then why is that the majority of both men and women find thinness attractive? women are almost always striving to become thin and men almost always prefer thin women over average to overweight women.

i'm not talking about skinny as in anorexic, third-world starvation skinny, but skinny as in thin but healthy. i find it hard to believe that society doesn't find skinny models i.e. alessandra ambrosio or gisele bunchden acceptable. in fact, they are praised and envied because of their size.

Tue, 01/02/2007 - 23:18 madeline The transsexual parade otherwise known as the Victoria’s Secret lingerie show: part 6

actually, i do not find that woman (gigi) attractive in the least. i might even say she is on the unattractive side. very boring face and although she has a feminine body, i don't find her breasts appealing.

when i look at adriana's face, something about it does say "masculine" to me, but for some reason i cannot pinpoint exactly what it is. because you're an expert on all of this, might i ask what exactly it is about her face that makes it seem masculine?

nevertheless, i still consider adriana to be one of the prettiest well-known females out there, even if she does have slight masculinity to her.

and in response to the poster who pointed out that adriana is asian, i am almost sure she is not. i think a lot of that rumor comes from "damage control" when she made a quote that "brazilian women are beautiful because they are of mixed race, unlike the japanese who all look the same".

i think what she really meant to say was that if you are of entirely one ethnicity, you don't have very diverse/exotic looks and therefore you look very plain and similar to everyone else. many people took that quote the wrong way and thought she implied that japanese people all look the same, and so they included in some of her bios that she is of japanese heritage.

i don't think she is even sure herself exactly what ethnicity she is. i am of mixed race too and don't know exactly my entire ancestry.

Tue, 01/02/2007 - 22:01 Sandy The transsexual parade otherwise known as the Victoria’s Secret lingerie show: part 6

Erik:

One of the challenges of this site for me has been to identify in specific terms why faces are/are not masculinized and where they rate on the masculine/feminine scale. As I tend to be more verbal and less visual in how I learn new things, it would help if you could be more specific about faces that are neither overtly feminine nor highly masculine....by spelling things out (to slow learners like me!) more precisely. (Ex: square jaw, high cheekbones, low eyebrows, protruding forehead, etc.)

While I see that Adriana is not particularly feminine, I have trouble identifying why she is masculine in her looks, and would probably (if left to my own devices) categorize her as "average", taking into account her ethnicity.

As to her physique, interestingly, some of her younger photos do depict a curvy shape with a clearly deliniated waist, but I agree that her body type overall (in her more recent photos) is fairly masculine.

While I agree that an above average feminine physique is important in something like lingerie/swimsuit modeling, I would not exclude Adriana from that line of work based solely on her face, which appears to be merely average (to me) but I might find her not feminine enough for something like a beauty pageant, where the face is much more important and relevant.

As for Veronika, LORD HAVE MERCY! If that represented the standard on this site, you would have a much smaller "Attractive Women" section..thankfully for average women like me, women with her physique are few and far between!

Tue, 01/02/2007 - 09:41 Kristin The transsexual parade otherwise known as the Victoria’s Secret lingerie show: part 6

nevermind---she has a masculine physique-

http://img22.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-29928/loc350/75084_hq04wa8_122_350lo.jpg

Tue, 01/02/2007 - 09:31 Kristin The transsexual parade otherwise known as the Victoria’s Secret lingerie show: part 6

i agree adriana has a somewhat boyish frame--but not as boytish as the other vs models. here is a candid of her with an ex-fiancee. i also posted a pic of her with her natural hair texture showing--proving she is atleast 1/3 to half black. often time they choose to lighten her skin in shoots, but that isn't a tan. maybe you should compare her to someone of mixed afro/meditterranean descent to see some masculinixation in her face., she is also part asian. i would suggest looking at some west induans, cape verdeans, etc. for that if you have prblems. but is it crazy to compare er to a northern european as she claims to be afro-carib, japanese, and portuguese...--- she is not "half" both her parents aoppear to be fair skinned blacks.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/cocoamama78/adriana032.jpg

http://www.thefashionspot.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70031&d=1120141909

Mon, 01/01/2007 - 14:59 Kristin More evidence against the "clothes hangar" argument

lastly in some ways narrow shoulders are problematic. the average woman in america has a rectangular figure---not a hourglass. as a woman with narrow shoulders, its hard to get clothes to hang right on me since the garment industry has respond to the new, emerging figure from the masses-- broad shoulders/back, thick waist, semi-full hips. the article below refers to the phenomena in american women, but it is also present in british women as well( and of course most all americans are of british decent---even african-americans)
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article328328.ece

Mon, 01/01/2007 - 14:48 Kristin More evidence against the "clothes hangar" argument

actually the women you just posted have decent fashion bodies cuz their shoulders are slightly broader than their hips or are equal. they arealso thin enough--as there are models thickerf wh make loads of cash... its their faces that would give them the boot(or really their hair)

Mon, 01/01/2007 - 10:05 Erik More evidence against the "clothes hangar" argument

Kristin: These women would be rejected for not having broad shoulders? What is this? Not all high-fashion models have broad shoulders, including a number who approximate the looks of boys in their early adolescence. Non-broad shoulders are not a problem when it comes to displaying clothing; consider the following pictures of one of the women shown above:

Tourist from Just Teen site

The “perfect vertical line” makes little sense when the fashion models will be swinging their arms, moving their shoulders and swaying their hips as they walk, and also in many cases wearing a shirt/dress that is supposed to taper toward the waist.

The women would be rejected for not being boyish for slender and small-breasted women (of course they are not skinny enough either).

Mon, 01/01/2007 - 09:16 Erik Maria McBane

Maddie: Here is the context of my point, your statement in Heidi Klum’s entry:

Quote:

the girl maria is really cute, but she looks like the 14 year old miley cyrus. you can’t really compare a younger girl like her to heidi klum because they are like 20 years apart. as a woman gets older her face gets more masculine.

You were implying that Heidi’s masculinization has a lot to do with her being supposedly 20 years older than Maria A.

Mon, 01/01/2007 - 09:02 Erik Welcome!

Aileen: My arguments would be rendered doubtful if I were unable to rebut the counterarguments, but there is no counterargument here that I have not been able to rebut; see if you can cite any example to the contrary. People who agree with this site are less inclined to leave comments than those who disagree. If all people who sent me positive emails had posted their comments here, you would have seen evidence of many more people agreeing with what is being said here.

I have not belittled your looks; just described them from the perspective of gay fashion designers. If you believe that what I wrote is incorrect, try attending an open call by a model scout agency or go to/send your pictures to a modeling agency and see what they have to say. I have a difficult time believing that you were advised by people working in the fashion industry to try fashion modeling.

Thank you for suggesting the actresses. As far as the attractive women section is concerned, Kirsten Dunst, Scarlett Johansson and Kate Winslet simply do not have the attractive looks and/or femininity to be put there, and a woman with the abnormal-looking cheekbones of Sophia Loren cannot be put there, either. I will consider the others, but I would need clear pictures of them in bikinis, obtaining which is often a problem when it comes to actresses, and one may have no choice other than getting their movies and taking a screen capture when one comes across the right scene. I have actually attempted this, only to be disappointed to learn that the actress that caught my fancy turned out to be unfeminine. Going after actresses at present is a poor return of investment for me, i.e., few good ones obtained for a great deal of time spent in finding suitable women.

I have not said that I did not know that Iranians were into plastic surgery; I wrote that I was not under the impression that Iranians are heavily into cosmetic surgery after your comment that Iran is the world’s capital for plastic surgery. This is a trivial issue anyway.

Your comment about my using old pictures of Australians/Africans is irrelevant; the people depicted are still around in plentiful numbers, and current pictures of them are also used. As to your comments about having me travel through the world, biological inclinations of men and women, the U.S. becoming less European...what is all this?

My implicating gay fashion designers for what they are responsible for is bias on my part? I have offered plenty of evidence, which you have not refuted except for pointing out ostensibly heterosexual designers such as Donna Karan. Firstly, being married with children is no proof that one is a lifetime-exclusive heterosexual. Secondly, the fashion business is dominated by homosexual men; other types have to comply with the status quo.

I appreciate your well wishes, though I don’t need them. This site has been in existence for 14 months and has done nicely for itself; it is also seeing accelerating success.

Mon, 01/01/2007 - 08:59 Erik Nonheterosexual vs. heterosexual male preference for petite women: Alessandra Ambrosio vs. Camille

Hans: May? They are obviously looking for what the fashion designers want, and we know what it is.

Mon, 01/01/2007 - 05:09 Kristin More evidence against the "clothes hangar" argument

morgane dubled is one of the top runway models---mostly for her body. the models can have a chest--but broad shoulders are a must. http://supermodels.nl/ModelPics/morganedubled/20.jpg
http://supermodels.nl/ModelPics/morganedubled/29.jpg

Sun, 12/31/2006 - 18:27 Georges Giguere The transsexual parade otherwise known as the Victoria’s Secret lingerie show: part 2

As far as wanting to "get to know her better", I would much prefer to hang out with a woman built like Grace than with supermodel Gisele. Partly because I've hung out with Really Beautiful women who were way too high-maintenance, and with average-looking, curvy women who accept who they are, and don't start the day needing to Make An Impression on the masses.

However, my main loves have all been lush, feminine, curvy women, taller than my meagre 5'5", who I hit it off with as people after the initial attraction.

On the Off-topic bit on lesbians: I've met a few butch man-haters, but by and large, most lesbian womenfolk just don't want a relationship with males because of the way guys treat women. Not because lesbians are jealous of genetic males' masculinity - ghod knows, I'm not terribly hypermasculine, have more in common with some of these supermodels.

Sat, 12/30/2006 - 22:46 maddie Maria McBane

you mentioned my name in your post.. um yay? i don't get what exactly your point was though. i agree with you entirely that heidi klum has a masculine face and will continue to get more so as she grows older.

maria mcbane: beautiful doll face, oversized hard to look at nipples.

Fri, 12/29/2006 - 12:50 Kristin More evidence against the "clothes hangar" argument

its more important that the model have broad shoulders than a perfectly flat chest. this way theclothes fall in a perfect vertical line from the shoulder---hence mimicking a hanger. the shoulders just aren't wide enough.

Wed, 12/27/2006 - 11:50 Aileen Welcome!

Furthermore, the fact that you did not know that Iranians are into plastic surgery is an indiction that you do not do much research sir on the subjects that you attempt to teach to others. Just type in a search engine "nose job" and "iran" and see what you find, at least a few hundred links will appear if not more.

You only use a few outdated photos of some indigenous Australian and African women to promote your noble cause among white America the majority of which are sadly not much more educated than yourself.

You may want to travel to at least a few different countries around the world in northern Europe, across the Mediterranean, East Asia, the Middle East, different sections of Africa, and South America in order to enrich your knowledge and understanding about the biological inclinations of men and women and how these are not standard among half the human population of men which consists of roughly 2.5 to 3 billion persons because the fact of the matter is that even the United States is gradually ceasing to remain as predominantly European in terms of its citizens' and residents' ancestry and is rather a melting pot of peoples from all of these countries which will include people like myself who will be reading your writings.

Lastly, you say you have no bias but the fact that you repeatedly use the phrase "as long as gays dominate the fashion industry...." is a clear indication that you have a personal bias against homosexuals and maybe this site is also intended to debunk homosexual fashion designers. For the record, sir, Donna Karan and Estee Lauder both of whom use those so called masculine models such as Elizabeth Hurley to promote their products are all females and many women themselves, promote that so-called masculinized look among women. God forbid you write a paragraph about how masculine and unfeminine these designers are who are raking in so much money because Donna Karan is married and so was her mother, another famous designer by the name of Anne Klein.

Again, making this post is a waste of my time, but its for your own good, sir. I hope you can appreciate the time that someone else puts into helping you learn new things.

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