the models you have been comparing all have higher cheekbones--itsjsut hte "feminine"ones are fuller all over,including there faces. ana's cheeks are more sunken than anything else.great example:
halle berry hashigh cheekbones that don'tlook remotely masculine/sunken
Ambreen: You are right that the extent of femininity can be relative. For instance, a masculine woman is more feminine than a very masculine woman in spite of having below average femininity. Therefore, where does one draw the line about the extent of femininity that is relevant to feminine beauty? In a previous discussion on the importance of femininity to beauty in women, you will find a summary of various correlates of beauty. Note that both having average features and above average femininity are correlates of beauty in women. Now, the greater the femininity, the greater the deviation from the average. Therefore, the averageness correlate of beauty places an upper bound on the extent of femininity that will be considered attractive. In other words, the extent of femininity that is relevant to feminine beauty is to be somewhat more feminine than average compared to the population norm. One could quantify this if one wished, but a visual examination of European women and the women in the attractive women section, except those shown on the pages featuring somewhat masculinized women, will easily reveal above average femininity among the showcased women that is nevertheless not so great so as to make these women notably deviate from the norms among women of their ethnic backgrounds.
The page linked to above talks about numerous objective correlates of beauty; see also this page. Therefore, it is simply not true that beauty is subjective. Since there is individual variation in preferences, people will not mutually agree all the time about who is beautiful, and some people will be notable outliers, but there is broad agreement in the population.
I do not understand what you are trying to convey by writing, “i dont buy your aregument that a hetrosexual man woouldnt find even the least masucline looking woman less desirable than the most feminine looking women.” I have pointed out that slight masculinization is a correlate of sexiness in women and there are also two pages featuring somewhat masculinized women in the attractive women section. Therefore, slight masculinization in women is not a problem from the perspective of lifetime-exclusive heterosexual men.
femininess is relative to some degree i.e for all the women you have classified as feminine looking in this site there may be women out there who are ten times more feminine looking than them and in comparison to these women they may even "look" masucline even "very" masucline and even vice versa with the masculine argument. There may be women who are ten times more masucline looking than the ones you have posted here that these may even "look" very feminine in comparison to them. Where do you draw the line?
I have read your site and i personally feel beauty, femininity and sexiness are
complex issues and to some degree overlap each other. I agree with you that you can measure femininity objectively however the concept of attractiveness is a whole different issue. I am unsure what you mean when you say attractiveness but i take it you mean with respect to finding the person overall physically beautiful/being attracted to them physically. On this note it would depend on what your defnition of physical beauty is and if beauty for you is subjective or objective. For me beauty is overall subjective and can only be subjective and in this respect what is feminine is not necesserily beautiful. I recognise/acknowledge beauty by that which stirs up an emotion/s inside ,beauty causes you to feel something,beauty moves a person and it is objective only in the respect that you have no control over what or who will stir up such emotions inside.I can say with all honesty the women you posted in the attractive women site did not stir up anything inside of me but i wholly agree with you that they are more feminine looking than the women you claim look masculine throughout your site and only on this basis i.e that they are more feminine looking (objective basis)that i agree with you that they are more attractive than the masucline looking women but not on any other basis (subjective basis).
Some of the more masculine looking faces of the models stirred up more emotion inside me than any of the pictures that you posted under the attractive women and this entirely because i percieve beauty to be overall subjective. Despite how objective you try and be about it all we are only human beings at the end of the day and we are affected and do affect others and do feel and express emotions. I am not saying that masculine women are more beautiful than feminine looking women far from it, but they are if i am to compare them to the ones you posted under the attractive women whom are far from beautiful in my eyes and from my perspective of seeing the whole beauty issue. The point I am driving at is if beauty is overall subjective then we really have no control over whom we classify as beautiful because we have no control over what someone will make us feel inside so with this in mind i am made to wonder that even if it may be the case that if overall feminine looks are more desirable than masucline looks where does beauty fit into this because your argument only allows us to come to a general agreement/consensus of what is and what constitutes femininess and although it may be more desirable than masucline looks the bottem line is we all come in different shapes and sizes and so you may find some extreamely beautiful feminine looking women who are ten times more beautiful then the most extreamely beautiful masucline looking women but you can also see it vice versa if you look at it from the perspective of the man who prefers masculine looking women. You can also find the most feminine looking women but judging overall looks and ones perception and final conclusion of weather you classify that person as beautiful or not will always be and remains subjective so in this respect even the most feminine of the feminine might loose againt even the least masculine of the masculine lookign women. I hope that you have understood the point that I am trying to bring across. Yes you can measure femininity objectively but beauty remains subjective. So if we do agree beauty is subjective then what guarentee is there that even the lifetime hetrosexual man will desire the feminie looking women over even the least masucline looking woman? This is something that baffles me and Im sorry but i dont buy your aregument that a hetrosexual man woouldnt find even the least masucline looking woman less desirable than the most feminine looking women because i percieve beauty subjectively.
Kristin: Femininity is not up for debate since this is a matter of objective assessment. Attractiveness can be debated though, though the debate will likely not be productive given individual variation in tastes. You find almost none of the feminine women shown within this site (presumably in the attractive women section) to have pretty faces and some homosexual men will even find their faces [and physiques] to be ugly, but most people [of European ancestry for sure] will rank the faces of the women shown in the attractive women section as having above average attractiveness, which is what matters since this site is targeting the general Western public.
dot: Using a name instead of a dot facilitates discussion, and is preferable. When I talked about highly rated women, I was obviously referring to the hotornot site since I have not presented public ratings of the attractive women shown within this (feminine beauty) site. If you read part 1 of the Victoria’s Secret series, you will encounter a statement implying that not all Victoria’s Secret models have a transsexual/transvestite or eunuchoid look to them. Such looks, if present in a large number of Victoria’s Secret models, will justify the title, especially if it is shown that the more feminine ones are still not feminine enough for the job. How feminine Adriana Lima is will be addressed in a subsequent entry.
Prof. Rainer Knußmann has been continuing the line of reasoning of classical anthropology, at the University of Hamburg, building on the earlier manual of Rudolf Martin and Karl Saller (1956, rev. ed., 1st ed. 1914).Knußmann categorizes 36 distinct human races and some subraces according to physical traits (chapter "Spezielle Rassenkunde(Rassensytematik)",pp.429-448), and concludes that the Paleomongolid (southern Mongolid) race is an example of paedomorphosis,(i.e., childlike concerning facial traits and body type), while the Nordic race is a typical masculine one ["Es gibt Rassen, die einen mehr kindhaften (pädomorphen)Habitus bewahrt haben (z.B. Palämongolide,Abb.308 [and as their subrace especially the Nesids with extreme pedomorphous appearance, s. photograph in "Knußmann" of half nude Nesid woman which I propose as a Nesid reference picture , Mr. Holland]),und solche, die in der Ontogenese stärker vorprellen, so daß sie mehr das typische Erwachsenenbild repräsentieren (...)"; "Manche Rassen sind als ganze mehr dem männlichen (z.B. Nordide,Dinaride), andere dem weiblichen Pol (z.B. Mediterranide,Palämongolide) angenähert."p.407.].
John Randal Baker for his part arrives at the same conclusion of paedomorphosis in the Palaemongolids of southeastern Asia (1974)["The somewhat paedomorphous peoples grouped together by Eickstedt as Palaemongolids have a very wide distribution (...)",p.538]. Baker provides a detailed description of the Mongoliform Sanid bushmen [chapter "The Sanids (Bushmen)",pp.303-325], and argues that their physical and psychological paedomorphosis hindered them from establishing a more advanced civilization ["Although mankind as a whole is paedomorphous,those ethnic taxa (the Sanids among them) that are markedly more paedomorphous than the rest have never achieved the status of civilization, or anything approaching it, by their own initiative.It would seem that when carried beyond a certain point, paedomorphosis is antagonistic to purely intellectual advance.",p.324; so an anthropological necessity arises to study the feminine psyche , too, on your site if it is really about "feminine beauty"]. Even the Boasian Ashley Montagu notes in his work that "One result of this is the high frequency of beauty among mongoloid males and females, a beauty of great delicacy (...). The differential action of neoteny has produced some peculiar effects. For example, among the highly neotenized Japanese the males upper and lower jaws have been reduced in size while the teeth have not. The result has created a disharmony in many males in the form of extreme crowding and malocclusion of the teeth." [Montagu, Ashley (1989) Growing Young N.Y.: McGraw Hill pp. 40]. The majority of biological anthropologists agree that paedomorphous physicality and behavior are closely associated with femininity, and that members of the Asiatic races are more feminine than the Caucasian races.
Secondly, Knußmann draws from Max Hartmann’s theory of relative sexuality in animals and plants (Hartmann, 1956; Chen, 2003).Knußmann writes :" Für die geschlechtertypologische Varationsreihe (M-W-Linie,vgl.Kap.IIIB2a) wurde die Partnerregel aufgestellt, daß ein ganzes M und ein ganzes W zusammenzutreten streben, wobei M und W von Fall zu Fall in verschiedenem Prozentsatz auf die beiden Partner verteilt sein können."(p.456). According to Hartmann, the intensity of sexuality in heterozygous gametes may not be the same for all individuals in a species, but instead may lie on a continuum, ranging from intensely female to intensely male. Furthermore, male gametes of high intensity then tend to unite with female gametes of high intensity. Hartmann's theory of relative sexuality was based upon study of sexual reproduction in certain isogamous and anisogamous algae (Smith, 1956). But Hartmann was also interested in human sexuality (Chen, 2003). Knußmann, maintaining Hartmann’s theory for humans, reasserts that very masculine men should be attracted to very feminine women, which could explain Caucasian men’s sexual attraction to Asian women. These couples would then be ideal in terms of the "power aspect" of sexuality, in which men have a tendentious instinct for dominance and women for submission. Knußmann believes that this is essential for a stable relationship, in contrast to the Halbkontrastehen (a dominant man with a semi-dominant (virago) woman), which is unstable due to unclear structures of power [Knußmann:"Es gibt Hinweise darauf, daß in mißglückten Ehen (geschiedene oder in Scheidung lebende Partner) keine Heterogamie bezüglich der leptomorph-pyknomorphen Variationsreihe vorliegt, sondern die Halbkontrastehen überdurchschnittlich häufig auftreten.",p.457].
References
1. J. R. Baker. (1974) Race. Oxford University Press, Oxford.
2. H.-A. Chen. (2003) Die Sexualitätstheorie und "Theoretische Biologie" von Max Hartmann in der ersten Hälfte des zwanzigsten Jahrhunderts. Sudhoffs Archiv Beiheft, 46.
3. M. Hartmann (1956) Die Sexualität: Das Wesen und die Grundgesetzlichkeiten des Geschlechts und der Geschlechtsbestimmung im Tier- und Pflanzenreich. (Jena, 1943; 2nd ed. 1956)
4. R. Knußmann. (1996) Vergleichende Biologie des Menschen: Lehrbuch der Anthropologie und Humangenetik. Fischer, Stuttgart;ISBN 343725040X,
please buy this book, Mr. Holland, it's unique
5. R. Martin and K. Saller. (1956) Lehrbuch der Anthropologie in systematischer Darstellung mit besonderer Berucksichtigung der anthropologischen Methoden. Fischer Verlag, Jena.
6. A. Montagu (1989) Growing Young. Bergin and Garvey, New York. 2nd ed.
7. G. M. Smith, 1956. The Role of Study of Algae in the Development of Botany. American Journal of Biology, 43:(7), pp. 537-543
Thank you very much, Mr. Holland. Please add the Nesid woman dancer "www.note-music.co.uk/02.Voyager/06.Bali/BaliGirl.jpg" to your website as an example of the feminine Nesid women.I am looking forward to your reply.
d'Artagnan
I was reffering to yamilas body not her face as you had mentioned in your site her body is more feminine, i agree with you her face is more masucline.i agree with you on naomi campbell looking masculine as for helena christensen i dont find her face masculine if anything i think her body is more masculine than her face, her body is tall, lanky and not in proportion and her back and backside is certainly not feminine, she doesnt have an hourglass figure either. i agree with you on mariah carey being more on the feminine side.
i don't think my name matters. i don't mind you calling me dot.
and i didn't say that all of the women on this site were really ugly. i was refering to the women that get high ratings on hotornot.com.
although i don't know many men who actually find gisele attractive, almost all the men i know are in love with adriana lima, and no, she isn't masculine at all. she is a victoria's secret model, but they rarely ever use her for any other fashion shows, because of her feminine looks, so no, not all of the VS models are trannies.
Yes I aggree with you, the general public prefer femine looks, and your explanation on why "butch" looking women make stardom, makes perfect sense, thanks Erik
maybe a better way to tackle this issue is to dissect the facs of feminine women who are cnsdired pretty--- right now almost none of the femme women on ur site have rpetty faces--so its hard to say--yes. mr. holland--ur absolutely correct. maybe vieers should post pics and we could openly debate whether this woman looks femme and why?
Simon: Petite is in reference to body build (extent of slenderness/curvaceousness), not height. Alessandra is a tall woman and would not be appropriately referred to as petite with respect to height.
What do you mean by petite? whats your definition of petite? are you reffering to a height or a body build? I would have thought petite is as feminine as one can get with respect to height that is as since when has shorter height been a masculine trait?
Kristin: What makes Grace more feminine than Gisele? What is this? Grace has a more feminine face, naturally larger breasts, relatively wider hips, more rounded hips, and her backside is more feminine than Gisele’s (see another picture of Gisele’s backside).
dot: You can surely come up with a pseudonym instead of a dot. The site hotornot.com is irrelevant to this entry. If you find the highly rated women at this site really ugly, then you have atypical preferences. No, the majority of people do not think that Gisele is attractive, certainly not the majority of those that have bothered to examine Gisele as shown above. The public overwhelmingly prefers femininity in the looks of women, but homosexual fashion designers, the people who dominate the fashion business, prefer women with masculine looks, which partly explains the stardom of women like Gisele. Gisele’s status has nothing to do with the preferences of the general public.
dot: Neither you nor I constitute the European public. The argument that people of European ancestry will overwhelmingly though not universally prefer the women in the attractive women section to high-fashion models is based on evidence from numerous studies showing that the public overwhelmingly aesthetically prefers women with above-average femininity. It is obvious that the women in the attractive women section are more feminine, on average, than high-fashion models, who happen to have below average femininity. Go through the site properly prior to commenting.
Whereas people have their own preferences, there is broad agreement about what constitutes attractiveness in the general public, and your disagreement does nothing to undermine the broad agreement in the population.
Simy: Who has said that Yamila looks feminine? Do you see a feminine face when you look at her? Her physique is not manly, but this does not mean that it is feminine; her breasts appear to be fake. Naomi Campbell is masculine, Helena Christensen has a masculine-looking face but not a masculine body, and Mariah Carey is in the normal-to-feminine range.
To no name posted 22.59 31/10/06 above,
don't never been to hot or not, just had a quick look, ok. I think the general public is actually brainwashed into what is expected to be "sexy", which of course changes with the generations. Over this century with photography one can see what was "sexy" at that particular time, in saying that, when there is a genuinely hot babe, regardless of which era, she is sexy even though the style's aren't the same as now.
i just looked through your attractie women section again and i take back what i said about them not having attractive bodies. since you seem to always prefer big breasted women over small breasted ones, i assumed they were all big (i haven't visited this site in a while). i prefer small to medium sized breasts. the thing i don't like most about those women are their faces. they may be feminine, but they're not pretty.
"the European public will overwhelmingly though not universally aesthetically prefer these women to high-fashion models"
you don't even know 0.000001% of the "european public" so you can't assume they prefer your so called atractive women over fashion models. i've looked through your attractive women section and only find very few of them attractive, facial-wise or physically. you are not the majority of european men; sorry to break it to you.
Kristin, I don't know how you can see any true sexieness in Gisele.... Any true red blooded guy is more turned on by that last pic of grace compared to any morbid faced stick figure.
I absolutley agree, what is sexy about anoerexic looking uncurved, no soft cuddly wobbly hips & bumb and fake breasts? It's the fashion world's patheticness. Also look into their eyes, there is much to say about inner beauty also sexieness is a state of mind and good self-esteem (which many of these 'top' models don't have), not physical appearence.
the models you have been comparing all have higher cheekbones--itsjsut hte "feminine"ones are fuller all over,including there faces. ana's cheeks are more sunken than anything else.great example:
halle berry hashigh cheekbones that don'tlook remotely masculine/sunken
http://imstars.aufeminin.com/stars/fan/D20060228/27_779731392_f86_halle_berry_2_H114832_L.jpg
they are full, healthy, and rounded
this pic better showed to me how tubular gisele's body is--- from behindit looks like she has junkin the trunck--- but herprofile brings light to the issue
http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/6457/giseleug4.jpg
Ambreen: You are right that the extent of femininity can be relative. For instance, a masculine woman is more feminine than a very masculine woman in spite of having below average femininity. Therefore, where does one draw the line about the extent of femininity that is relevant to feminine beauty? In a previous discussion on the importance of femininity to beauty in women, you will find a summary of various correlates of beauty. Note that both having average features and above average femininity are correlates of beauty in women. Now, the greater the femininity, the greater the deviation from the average. Therefore, the averageness correlate of beauty places an upper bound on the extent of femininity that will be considered attractive. In other words, the extent of femininity that is relevant to feminine beauty is to be somewhat more feminine than average compared to the population norm. One could quantify this if one wished, but a visual examination of European women and the women in the attractive women section, except those shown on the pages featuring somewhat masculinized women, will easily reveal above average femininity among the showcased women that is nevertheless not so great so as to make these women notably deviate from the norms among women of their ethnic backgrounds.
The page linked to above talks about numerous objective correlates of beauty; see also this page. Therefore, it is simply not true that beauty is subjective. Since there is individual variation in preferences, people will not mutually agree all the time about who is beautiful, and some people will be notable outliers, but there is broad agreement in the population.
I do not understand what you are trying to convey by writing, “i dont buy your aregument that a hetrosexual man woouldnt find even the least masucline looking woman less desirable than the most feminine looking women.” I have pointed out that slight masculinization is a correlate of sexiness in women and there are also two pages featuring somewhat masculinized women in the attractive women section. Therefore, slight masculinization in women is not a problem from the perspective of lifetime-exclusive heterosexual men.
Women #6 is the best looking.
femininess is relative to some degree i.e for all the women you have classified as feminine looking in this site there may be women out there who are ten times more feminine looking than them and in comparison to these women they may even "look" masucline even "very" masucline and even vice versa with the masculine argument. There may be women who are ten times more masucline looking than the ones you have posted here that these may even "look" very feminine in comparison to them. Where do you draw the line?
I have read your site and i personally feel beauty, femininity and sexiness are
complex issues and to some degree overlap each other. I agree with you that you can measure femininity objectively however the concept of attractiveness is a whole different issue. I am unsure what you mean when you say attractiveness but i take it you mean with respect to finding the person overall physically beautiful/being attracted to them physically. On this note it would depend on what your defnition of physical beauty is and if beauty for you is subjective or objective. For me beauty is overall subjective and can only be subjective and in this respect what is feminine is not necesserily beautiful. I recognise/acknowledge beauty by that which stirs up an emotion/s inside ,beauty causes you to feel something,beauty moves a person and it is objective only in the respect that you have no control over what or who will stir up such emotions inside.I can say with all honesty the women you posted in the attractive women site did not stir up anything inside of me but i wholly agree with you that they are more feminine looking than the women you claim look masculine throughout your site and only on this basis i.e that they are more feminine looking (objective basis)that i agree with you that they are more attractive than the masucline looking women but not on any other basis (subjective basis).
Some of the more masculine looking faces of the models stirred up more emotion inside me than any of the pictures that you posted under the attractive women and this entirely because i percieve beauty to be overall subjective. Despite how objective you try and be about it all we are only human beings at the end of the day and we are affected and do affect others and do feel and express emotions. I am not saying that masculine women are more beautiful than feminine looking women far from it, but they are if i am to compare them to the ones you posted under the attractive women whom are far from beautiful in my eyes and from my perspective of seeing the whole beauty issue. The point I am driving at is if beauty is overall subjective then we really have no control over whom we classify as beautiful because we have no control over what someone will make us feel inside so with this in mind i am made to wonder that even if it may be the case that if overall feminine looks are more desirable than masucline looks where does beauty fit into this because your argument only allows us to come to a general agreement/consensus of what is and what constitutes femininess and although it may be more desirable than masucline looks the bottem line is we all come in different shapes and sizes and so you may find some extreamely beautiful feminine looking women who are ten times more beautiful then the most extreamely beautiful masucline looking women but you can also see it vice versa if you look at it from the perspective of the man who prefers masculine looking women. You can also find the most feminine looking women but judging overall looks and ones perception and final conclusion of weather you classify that person as beautiful or not will always be and remains subjective so in this respect even the most feminine of the feminine might loose againt even the least masculine of the masculine lookign women. I hope that you have understood the point that I am trying to bring across. Yes you can measure femininity objectively but beauty remains subjective. So if we do agree beauty is subjective then what guarentee is there that even the lifetime hetrosexual man will desire the feminie looking women over even the least masucline looking woman? This is something that baffles me and Im sorry but i dont buy your aregument that a hetrosexual man woouldnt find even the least masucline looking woman less desirable than the most feminine looking women because i percieve beauty subjectively.
Kristin: Femininity is not up for debate since this is a matter of objective assessment. Attractiveness can be debated though, though the debate will likely not be productive given individual variation in tastes. You find almost none of the feminine women shown within this site (presumably in the attractive women section) to have pretty faces and some homosexual men will even find their faces [and physiques] to be ugly, but most people [of European ancestry for sure] will rank the faces of the women shown in the attractive women section as having above average attractiveness, which is what matters since this site is targeting the general Western public.
dot: Using a name instead of a dot facilitates discussion, and is preferable. When I talked about highly rated women, I was obviously referring to the hotornot site since I have not presented public ratings of the attractive women shown within this (feminine beauty) site. If you read part 1 of the Victoria’s Secret series, you will encounter a statement implying that not all Victoria’s Secret models have a transsexual/transvestite or eunuchoid look to them. Such looks, if present in a large number of Victoria’s Secret models, will justify the title, especially if it is shown that the more feminine ones are still not feminine enough for the job. How feminine Adriana Lima is will be addressed in a subsequent entry.
Prof. Rainer Knußmann has been continuing the line of reasoning of classical anthropology, at the University of Hamburg, building on the earlier manual of Rudolf Martin and Karl Saller (1956, rev. ed., 1st ed. 1914).Knußmann categorizes 36 distinct human races and some subraces according to physical traits (chapter "Spezielle Rassenkunde(Rassensytematik)",pp.429-448), and concludes that the Paleomongolid (southern Mongolid) race is an example of paedomorphosis,(i.e., childlike concerning facial traits and body type), while the Nordic race is a typical masculine one ["Es gibt Rassen, die einen mehr kindhaften (pädomorphen)Habitus bewahrt haben (z.B. Palämongolide,Abb.308 [and as their subrace especially the Nesids with extreme pedomorphous appearance, s. photograph in "Knußmann" of half nude Nesid woman which I propose as a Nesid reference picture , Mr. Holland]),und solche, die in der Ontogenese stärker vorprellen, so daß sie mehr das typische Erwachsenenbild repräsentieren (...)"; "Manche Rassen sind als ganze mehr dem männlichen (z.B. Nordide,Dinaride), andere dem weiblichen Pol (z.B. Mediterranide,Palämongolide) angenähert."p.407.].
John Randal Baker for his part arrives at the same conclusion of paedomorphosis in the Palaemongolids of southeastern Asia (1974)["The somewhat paedomorphous peoples grouped together by Eickstedt as Palaemongolids have a very wide distribution (...)",p.538]. Baker provides a detailed description of the Mongoliform Sanid bushmen [chapter "The Sanids (Bushmen)",pp.303-325], and argues that their physical and psychological paedomorphosis hindered them from establishing a more advanced civilization ["Although mankind as a whole is paedomorphous,those ethnic taxa (the Sanids among them) that are markedly more paedomorphous than the rest have never achieved the status of civilization, or anything approaching it, by their own initiative.It would seem that when carried beyond a certain point, paedomorphosis is antagonistic to purely intellectual advance.",p.324; so an anthropological necessity arises to study the feminine psyche , too, on your site if it is really about "feminine beauty"]. Even the Boasian Ashley Montagu notes in his work that "One result of this is the high frequency of beauty among mongoloid males and females, a beauty of great delicacy (...). The differential action of neoteny has produced some peculiar effects. For example, among the highly neotenized Japanese the males upper and lower jaws have been reduced in size while the teeth have not. The result has created a disharmony in many males in the form of extreme crowding and malocclusion of the teeth." [Montagu, Ashley (1989) Growing Young N.Y.: McGraw Hill pp. 40]. The majority of biological anthropologists agree that paedomorphous physicality and behavior are closely associated with femininity, and that members of the Asiatic races are more feminine than the Caucasian races.
Secondly, Knußmann draws from Max Hartmann’s theory of relative sexuality in animals and plants (Hartmann, 1956; Chen, 2003).Knußmann writes :" Für die geschlechtertypologische Varationsreihe (M-W-Linie,vgl.Kap.IIIB2a) wurde die Partnerregel aufgestellt, daß ein ganzes M und ein ganzes W zusammenzutreten streben, wobei M und W von Fall zu Fall in verschiedenem Prozentsatz auf die beiden Partner verteilt sein können."(p.456). According to Hartmann, the intensity of sexuality in heterozygous gametes may not be the same for all individuals in a species, but instead may lie on a continuum, ranging from intensely female to intensely male. Furthermore, male gametes of high intensity then tend to unite with female gametes of high intensity. Hartmann's theory of relative sexuality was based upon study of sexual reproduction in certain isogamous and anisogamous algae (Smith, 1956). But Hartmann was also interested in human sexuality (Chen, 2003). Knußmann, maintaining Hartmann’s theory for humans, reasserts that very masculine men should be attracted to very feminine women, which could explain Caucasian men’s sexual attraction to Asian women. These couples would then be ideal in terms of the "power aspect" of sexuality, in which men have a tendentious instinct for dominance and women for submission. Knußmann believes that this is essential for a stable relationship, in contrast to the Halbkontrastehen (a dominant man with a semi-dominant (virago) woman), which is unstable due to unclear structures of power [Knußmann:"Es gibt Hinweise darauf, daß in mißglückten Ehen (geschiedene oder in Scheidung lebende Partner) keine Heterogamie bezüglich der leptomorph-pyknomorphen Variationsreihe vorliegt, sondern die Halbkontrastehen überdurchschnittlich häufig auftreten.",p.457].
References
1. J. R. Baker. (1974) Race. Oxford University Press, Oxford.
2. H.-A. Chen. (2003) Die Sexualitätstheorie und "Theoretische Biologie" von Max Hartmann in der ersten Hälfte des zwanzigsten Jahrhunderts. Sudhoffs Archiv Beiheft, 46.
3. M. Hartmann (1956) Die Sexualität: Das Wesen und die Grundgesetzlichkeiten des Geschlechts und der Geschlechtsbestimmung im Tier- und Pflanzenreich. (Jena, 1943; 2nd ed. 1956)
4. R. Knußmann. (1996) Vergleichende Biologie des Menschen: Lehrbuch der Anthropologie und Humangenetik. Fischer, Stuttgart;ISBN 343725040X,
please buy this book, Mr. Holland, it's unique
5. R. Martin and K. Saller. (1956) Lehrbuch der Anthropologie in systematischer Darstellung mit besonderer Berucksichtigung der anthropologischen Methoden. Fischer Verlag, Jena.
6. A. Montagu (1989) Growing Young. Bergin and Garvey, New York. 2nd ed.
7. G. M. Smith, 1956. The Role of Study of Algae in the Development of Botany. American Journal of Biology, 43:(7), pp. 537-543
Thank you very much, Mr. Holland. Please add the Nesid woman dancer "www.note-music.co.uk/02.Voyager/06.Bali/BaliGirl.jpg" to your website as an example of the feminine Nesid women.I am looking forward to your reply.
d'Artagnan
However even mariah sometimes appears masculine to me body wise
I was reffering to yamilas body not her face as you had mentioned in your site her body is more feminine, i agree with you her face is more masucline.i agree with you on naomi campbell looking masculine as for helena christensen i dont find her face masculine if anything i think her body is more masculine than her face, her body is tall, lanky and not in proportion and her back and backside is certainly not feminine, she doesnt have an hourglass figure either. i agree with you on mariah carey being more on the feminine side.
i don't think my name matters. i don't mind you calling me dot.
and i didn't say that all of the women on this site were really ugly. i was refering to the women that get high ratings on hotornot.com.
although i don't know many men who actually find gisele attractive, almost all the men i know are in love with adriana lima, and no, she isn't masculine at all. she is a victoria's secret model, but they rarely ever use her for any other fashion shows, because of her feminine looks, so no, not all of the VS models are trannies.
Yes I aggree with you, the general public prefer femine looks, and your explanation on why "butch" looking women make stardom, makes perfect sense, thanks Erik
maybe a better way to tackle this issue is to dissect the facs of feminine women who are cnsdired pretty--- right now almost none of the femme women on ur site have rpetty faces--so its hard to say--yes. mr. holland--ur absolutely correct. maybe vieers should post pics and we could openly debate whether this woman looks femme and why?
Simon: Petite is in reference to body build (extent of slenderness/curvaceousness), not height. Alessandra is a tall woman and would not be appropriately referred to as petite with respect to height.
What do you mean by petite? whats your definition of petite? are you reffering to a height or a body build? I would have thought petite is as feminine as one can get with respect to height that is as since when has shorter height been a masculine trait?
Kristin: What makes Grace more feminine than Gisele? What is this? Grace has a more feminine face, naturally larger breasts, relatively wider hips, more rounded hips, and her backside is more feminine than Gisele’s (see another picture of Gisele’s backside).
dot: You can surely come up with a pseudonym instead of a dot. The site hotornot.com is irrelevant to this entry. If you find the highly rated women at this site really ugly, then you have atypical preferences. No, the majority of people do not think that Gisele is attractive, certainly not the majority of those that have bothered to examine Gisele as shown above. The public overwhelmingly prefers femininity in the looks of women, but homosexual fashion designers, the people who dominate the fashion business, prefer women with masculine looks, which partly explains the stardom of women like Gisele. Gisele’s status has nothing to do with the preferences of the general public.
dot: Neither you nor I constitute the European public. The argument that people of European ancestry will overwhelmingly though not universally prefer the women in the attractive women section to high-fashion models is based on evidence from numerous studies showing that the public overwhelmingly aesthetically prefers women with above-average femininity. It is obvious that the women in the attractive women section are more feminine, on average, than high-fashion models, who happen to have below average femininity. Go through the site properly prior to commenting.
Whereas people have their own preferences, there is broad agreement about what constitutes attractiveness in the general public, and your disagreement does nothing to undermine the broad agreement in the population.
Simy: Who has said that Yamila looks feminine? Do you see a feminine face when you look at her? Her physique is not manly, but this does not mean that it is feminine; her breasts appear to be fake. Naomi Campbell is masculine, Helena Christensen has a masculine-looking face but not a masculine body, and Mariah Carey is in the normal-to-feminine range.
To no name posted 22.59 31/10/06 above,
don't never been to hot or not, just had a quick look, ok. I think the general public is actually brainwashed into what is expected to be "sexy", which of course changes with the generations. Over this century with photography one can see what was "sexy" at that particular time, in saying that, when there is a genuinely hot babe, regardless of which era, she is sexy even though the style's aren't the same as now.
a bit off topic, but what do you think of the site hotornot.com?
i usually find all the women that get high ratings really ugly. however, it is the general public who rates these photos.
although both you and i know gisele is unattractive, the majority of people think she's hot.
i just looked through your attractie women section again and i take back what i said about them not having attractive bodies. since you seem to always prefer big breasted women over small breasted ones, i assumed they were all big (i haven't visited this site in a while). i prefer small to medium sized breasts. the thing i don't like most about those women are their faces. they may be feminine, but they're not pretty.
"the European public will overwhelmingly though not universally aesthetically prefer these women to high-fashion models"
you don't even know 0.000001% of the "european public" so you can't assume they prefer your so called atractive women over fashion models. i've looked through your attractive women section and only find very few of them attractive, facial-wise or physically. you are not the majority of european men; sorry to break it to you.
Kristin, I don't know how you can see any true sexieness in Gisele.... Any true red blooded guy is more turned on by that last pic of grace compared to any morbid faced stick figure.
I absolutley agree, what is sexy about anoerexic looking uncurved, no soft cuddly wobbly hips & bumb and fake breasts? It's the fashion world's patheticness. Also look into their eyes, there is much to say about inner beauty also sexieness is a state of mind and good self-esteem (which many of these 'top' models don't have), not physical appearence.
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