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Maria McBane

Maria McBane

Maria McBane was Playboy's Playmate of the Month for the May 1965 issue.  Too bad Playboy has moved away from showcasing such women and instead been filling its pages with masculinized women having breast implants.  Anyway, Maria McBane has been added to the attractive women section apart from being shown here.

Maria McBane

Maria McBane

Maria McBane

Maria McBane

In a previous entry that addressed Heidi Klum in the context of working as a lingerie model for Victoria's Secret, a commentator pointed out that women become more masculine as they age, and Heidi Klum's manly face in comparison to a feminine women was an artifact of comparing a 14-year-old girl with a woman (Heidi) nearly 20 years her senior.  I pointed out that the feminine woman is at least 18 and that whereas in the first picture where she is contrasted with Heidi, Heidi may be in the neighborhood of 30, Heidi is in her twenties in her other pictures.  The question is, do a few years, even 10 years, during young adulthood substantially alter the extent of masculinization of women?

Well, the pictures above show Maria at age 19.  The following picture of Maria was taken in 1998, i.e., when she was about 52.

Maria McBane

A 52-year-old woman is not going to look as attractive as she was at 19, but does Maria look manly in the picture above?  The fact is that when a young woman is feminine from head to toe like 19-year-old Maria McBane, whereas she will become more masculine with age, aging is not going to turn her into a manly woman.

Here is Heidi Klum's picture again, presumably showing her in the neighborhood of 30, along with the feminine woman she was compared to.

Heidi Klum and Maria A. from Domai

With respect to masculinity-femininity, does anyone want to bet how Heidi Klum's face will look like when she is 52?  Madeline?

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Comments

you mentioned my name in your post.. um yay? i don't get what exactly your point was though. i agree with you entirely that heidi klum has a masculine face and will continue to get more so as she grows older.

maria mcbane: beautiful doll face, oversized hard to look at nipples.

Maddie: Here is the context of my point, your statement in Heidi Klum’s entry:

Quote:

the girl maria is really cute, but she looks like the 14 year old miley cyrus. you can’t really compare a younger girl like her to heidi klum because they are like 20 years apart. as a woman gets older her face gets more masculine.

You were implying that Heidi’s masculinization has a lot to do with her being supposedly 20 years older than Maria A.

I LOVE MARI MCBANE BREST.

I LOVE MARAI MCBANES BREST.I WOULD LOVE TO BE BREST FED BY HIER.MILK MILK,I WHANT MARAIS BREST MILK

She is very feminine looking to me. Although i am a little surprised that you used her Eric because her nose is on the broader side. You seem to be a big fan of extremely small/refined noses.

Peter: Attractiveness is related to the whole picture. A nose on the somewhat broad side or another small deviation from the highly desirable or two will not detract much from the overall appeal of an attractive woman. I do not believe that I am a big fan of “extremely small/refined noses.” High-end European models usually have fine noses.

"oversized hard to look at nipples" -sez you
and the correct term is areola; obviously one cannot see the nipples in the posted pics. A quick search does show that Maria has beautiful and normal sized nipples.
of course you are entitled to your own worthless, dumbshit, man-nippled opinion.

Heidi Klum is not feminine but there are many even worse examples, I think. Someone I think is very masculine is the overrated Karolina Kurkova - a Czech model with very heavy features often seen in Slavic women, a huge, masculine mouth and a hooked nose.

She is only 24, but even now she makes Heidi Klum (35) look feminine!

It seems that the new models are only getting manlier and manlier. It is a terrible trend that needs to be stopped. Imagine what Karolina will look like when she is 35 like Heidi. There are a few masculine models that still manage to be interesting and alluring in their own way, but to often their masculinity totally dominates their looks. It is clear that homosexual fashion designers' taste in women is not in line with what most people regard as feminine and attractive.

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35-year-old German Heidi, and 24-year-old Czech Karolina.

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Karolina.

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Young Heidi.

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Young Karolina.

Emily,

Karolina looks more Nordic than Heidi on all terms so you are basically contradicting your whole point. Heidi leans towards an Alpine look, while Karolina leans toward a Nordic look or you can argue that she may seem Dinaric. Dinarics are more often Nordic/Alpine mixes rather than Med/Alpine mixes. Either way, Slavic women are no where near unattractive and they are very feminine with an athletic twist. Eastern Europe has plenty of women that can pass for a girl in your "Nordic" pictures you have posted all over the site.

Dasha Astafieva animated gif Pictures, Images and Photos

Dasha Astafieva: VERRRYY NICE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIek45JBmLQ

What a beautiful curvy yet athletic body she has in that video!

Also, Erik's claims that more Nordic women have an hourglass figure compared to other European populations are not backed up with substantial data. I personally think it is a load of crap.

More pics of her:

http://bittenandbound.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/dasha-astafieva.jpg

http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6193084,00.jpg

* Don't bring up the fact that she is a model she had surgery blah blugh blah

If you put almost most Eastern European women on a tread mill, give her a nice spray tan, make sures she eats well and takes care of her skin, you will get a very beautiful woman.

Erik, I find that strangely enough in this post someone named Erik Holland admits to Northern European women having smaller breasts in a response. Is it you?:

Lisa said at February 16, 2006 09:03 PM:
Erik Holland,

Contrary to what you believe, northern european women are usually tall, have prominent noses, hard bone structures and no breasts whatsoever. If you want to talk about beautiful european women it has to be eastern/southern europeans but i guess it's the light hair/eyes combination that you find appealing. In my opinion having such a low contrast between hair colour, skin colour etc makes someone look very washed out. Without makeup the women in the site look like somebody squeezed the juice out of them not to mention the unsightly freckles and thin lips they had. Also you posted a picture of charlize Theron on your site and although she has cute facial features she does not even come close to an actress such as Monica Bellucci and has absolutely no sex appeal. At the same physical height, Monica Bellucci has a woman's body while Charlize has relatively no breasts/hips and large shoulders along with chicken legs. If they walked together in the same room, charlize would be invisible.

Erik Holland said at March 3, 2006 04:15 AM:
Lisa,

It is true that Northern European women tend to be taller, more prominent nosed and smaller breasted than Southern European women, but by no means are all Northern European women tall, prominent nosed and small breasted. Pigmentation is not relevant to my site because the focus is on skeletal traits, fat distribution and muscle structure. Speaking of skeletal traits, Northern European women tend to have finer facial features, partly explaining whey they are overrepresented among high-end models. I have only displayed Charlize Theron’s face, not her physique. I agree that her physique is nowhere close to being a good example of a feminine physique. On the other hand, whereas Monica Belluci has a better physique than Charlize Theron and is a good looking woman, neither her face nor her body is impressive enough for me to use as good examples of feminine beauty.

website link:

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002092.html

*May I also add that I personally do not believe that Northern European are smaller breasted on average than other European women. I think that it is about equal, and I love tall and equally athletic Northern European women. DONT GET ME WRONG! I would never turn down a beautiful Northern European woman, and you will find many beautiful Nordic women. However, Southern and Eastern European women are also just as attractive, they too have a large population of hourglass females, they too have a large pop. of beautiful women. To say that Nordic women are the best is ignorant. Between European women I honestly cannot say that one or the other is "top".

Ching Chang: Karolina Kurkova does not have a Nordic face by a long shot; Heidi Klum is closer but you wouldn’t call her a Nordic either. Regarding my 3-year-old statement, at another site, about Northern European women having smaller breasts than Southern European women, it wasn’t an admission, but a statement that represented a mistaken belief. Northern European women actually tend to have larger breasts than Southern European women, on average. The reason for my earlier belief was apparently because most of the interaction I have had with European women has been with Northern European women whereas my exposure to Southern European women has been more in the context of models, usually not fashion models because most fashion models are Northern European types.

Erik is right. Karolina is not Nordic at all. She is very much a typical Slav, except maybe that her forehead is bigger/higher and her face less round than usual. Coincidentally, those two things about her are her only good points as far as looks go. With that typical lower forehead often seen among Slavic people she would have looked even worse.

Her facial features, heavy cheekbones, ugly coarse and hooked nose, very masculine jaw, masculine large teeth, and so forth, are very much Slavic. Anyone living in Scandinavia sees that she is not from here right away since such heavy and coarse features are typically Slavic - not Nordic. It always amuses me when people try to teach me what my own people look like.

Heidi's more delicate and refined facial features are typical for Nordics, even if she might not be 100% Nordic in type. Since Heidi does not look Slavic at all people here would not react to her looks being foreign. Also, again...not all Nordics are of Hallstatt type! Try to understand that. Heidi's face - being less oval than Karolina's - STILL looks Nordic in comparison. Many Nordics have faces similar to Heidi's.

These are two masculine models - one being younger and much more masculine due to her coarse and heavy Slavic features - and the other one older but Germanic/Nordic in type, and actually looking younger and more feminine by comparison. No one would question Heidi being Nordic or Germanic if she had been an unknown living in Sweden. The very first question Karolina would get from a Swede would be "Where are you from originally?".

Erik,

Please. I think you are full of shit and I am sure you have ulterior motives. The research you provide for your statement is a joke. You admitted it yourself.

Emily,

Racism is often looked down upon by educated people. If you want to get anywhere in this world, I suggest you expand the way you think. Racists also have lower IQs.

A survey some bra company did is not real research. More so, the fact that it is reported in the Sun makes it even less credible! Who takes this serious? Where are your peer reviewed scholarly articles? Erik, please stop lying to yourself. Anthropologists, and even a regular population notice that Northern European women have on average smaller breasts and asses than other European women. I don't think all of them have smaller breasts and asses but most of them do. They also have longer, thinner, faces and jaws. Actually, one major reason blonde hair and blue eyes were so selected in Nordic countries is because the soft colors softened and feminized the look of otherwise small breasted angular sharp featured women.

The fact that you claim Heidi is more Nordic looking than Karolina is a joke.

Hardly. The fact that you don't understand what we are talking about is the joke.

Also, I think I am better qualified than you to give an opinion on this since I have lived in Sweden my whole life, know Scandinavia and know Nordic looks, and know what isn't Nordic looks. Your anger and hostility shine through your comments, and personal attacks speak of lack of real arguments. It is weakness and it is trolling. As for racism that accusation could easily be thrown back at you..

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Small-breasted Swedish Anita.

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Terrible-looking Swedish girl who needs to be blonde so you can stand looking at her.

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Sharp-featured (?) blonde Swedish girl.

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Another poor Swedish soul who needs the blonde color.

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Swedish girls without the broad, coarse and heavy Slavic features of let's say Slavic Kurkova.

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Another terrible poor Swede who needs the blonde color so that men would look at her. ;)

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Yet another awful Swedish girl.

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Yes, Nordic women are well-known for their lack of femininity and beauty, especially the Scandinavians. That's what men say, isn't it? Somehow I get the impression you are not Nordic, nor a man.

Thank god for the feminine Slavic and Asian girls.

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Yes, Emily, many of the pictures of Nordic women you post proves my point thank you:)

What a horrible representative Sweden has on this website

Emily,

You seriously need a job besides spamming the website with pictures.
Why not put up your own pictures instead of googling for pictures? Well anyone can get ugly or beautiful pics using Google search but I am surprised at the time and effort you are putting into that 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Are you hating on the asian and eastern european girls because your husband/boyfriend found you so ugly and left you or is thinking of leaving you?

Well, let me add to your misery by saying I am a beautiful asian girl working in IT and I have fucked and dumped a lot of Swedish/Nordic guys.

I am married now to my besotted anglo saxon husband 28 year old blue eyed, blonde haired engineer/ national team rower but fortunately he is intelligent enough to recognise real beauty and not to be blinded by BIGOTRY.

"I have fucked and dumped a lot of Swedish/Nordic guys."

No offense but are you sure it was not the other way around? In view of your way writing here I cannot imagine most men being serious about you.

Since people here seem to have lots of misconceptions regarding Nordic looks I think it is important to educate and inform. I don't intend to read blatantly false descriptions of Nordic looks without correcting those descriptions. I suspect a majority of those comments to be more or less troll comments by envious or "misinformed" people here, but nevertheless it's important to not let false information stand.

Also, people are not bigots just because they may not like Asian looks. Just like so many of non-Nordic women here who bash Nordic looks, we too have the prerogative of having the taste we want. It works both ways, you see.

Personally, I think Asians in general are pretty ugly. I admit that. Most of the Asians I have seen who look half-decent are not 100% Asians but 50% white. What should I do? Force myself to like something? There are exceptions. I like the look of the Vietnamese woman who played in the film The Quiet American. She had a sweetness and kindness to her face that I don't see often in Asian faces, which to me often seem very expressionless or downright hard. You can find beauty in everything God has created, but it is just not seen that often in all of those things. Sorry.

Emily,

Please do not bring God into this. If you truly could see beauty in everything God has created than you wouldn't post pictures of half retarded women claiming they are slavic and asian and the sorts, and then post biased pictures of Nordic women who in my opinion besides the makeup and hair dye do not have much to offer either. Please don't mention God in any of your posts because you insult all his creation in your posts. Thank you.

Chang,

Emily is being unaccountably crude. But her line of thought (I guess it qualifies as that) is very much a product of the "homogenized global culture" that is being shoved down everybody's throat, most intensely in western countries, but across E. Europe and S. America too. That culture is liberal to its core, but what its purveyors have failed to consider is that one of the effects of the ineluctable reduction of "life" to little more than sex and money (and that's as true for commies and as it is for capitalists) is that these kind of "universal" beauty traits will be uncovered and objectified -- whereas they were previously happily unnoticed or ignored -- and their owners... well, see: "Emily."

Wow I am just shocked reading this whole debate.

Emily, no matter what someone says you have to argue with them? Listen to what they are saying hun! Argentum was just trying to be as objective as he could be in anything he was saying. He never really says anything that leans one way or the other, if you notice he provides simple FACTS!

However, Emily is not the only one with crazy arguments on here! Either way this is specifically to Emily because she seems kind of racist to me. Do you like watching TV or listening to the radio or going online and typing crazy things on crazy websites? Well thank an UGLY EASTERN EUROPEAN the Serbian Nikola Tesla for inventing electricity and almost anything else you use today! He is named the FATHER OF THE 20th CENTURY! He is an ethnic Serb that moved to the U.S. So next time you sit down and type away at your computer remember what those ugly little Slavic people did for you!

notice his ugly Slavic "hooked nose"

Maybe I agree that Northern European are most beautiful but who knows why I agree? And even if they are the most beautiful so what? Does that mean that every other race has little or no value and that you cannot find a high percentage of beautiful people anywhere else? To believe this the person is ignorant.

What does Nikola Tesla's inventions have to do with beauty and femininity? LOL There are many talented and special people all over the world who are not good-looking. Seriously, what kind of nonsense is this?

This site is about femininity and beauty, and even though I am sure he was very special and an important inventor I doubt he was very feminine-looking - or a woman.

Seriously, this racist nonsense will have to stop. Otherwise I should be able to throw that race card back at anyone here who says anything negative about people I feel look feminine and beautiful.

I am shocked to see how often this word is abused in the US, and how often white people fall for this scare tactic. We have a right to think we are prettier, just like you also have that right. There is this double-standard in the US, I think, where everyone - EXCEPT white people - is allowed to say they prefer the looks of their own race. Why? What are you afraid of?

Blacks glorify their own race and speak derogatorily about whites as pigs, pasty, albino etc, and so do Asians and Hispanics, and they
simultaneously rave about their own race and how good they look. This double-standard has to stop. You use that in order to hold one group of people down, and it doesn't work that way. If you want equality you should allow equality on all fronts.

I know what I am and what I am not. You don't since you don't know me. The only thing you know is that I think Nordic women are far superior in regards to physical appearance. Most people do agree on that, you see. What is racist about that? Had I said I think Asians are the most beautiful people on earth no one would have said a thing about "racism". What a sad state the US is in.

Also, I bring up God as much as I want to. Some may prefer to be hypocritical. I prefer honesty. Not all of his creations are equally beautiful. That doesn't mean they are worth less than the others, however denying a fact is not something I intend to do.

"What a sad country the U.S. is"

No Emily, what a sad person you are

EMILY,

Relevant to this page why don't you tell us what you think of the looks of Maria? she is not Nordic/Scandanavian looking. I find her very feminine looking...although i feel her hair/eyes might not be light enough for you.

As a brazilian person I've got my points about this site.

This site is racist (at least partially). Erik brings to us some interesting discussions. He even provides some delightful scientifical studies and facts. The problem concerning this site is when Erik turn off science and starts throwing PERSONAL opinion. I have no problem accepting nordic woman as the most feminine as long as this "fact" stick to science. But very usually Erik is bitter to other "races", so the uncountable bitter response he gets by the guests.

You Erick, commited a mistake when you started to compare white people to asiat and black people. You should always keep to your own. You should just talk of white people and no other "race" else. You receive acid response because you are bitter and offensive to others

Another problem are the guests. You simply combat racism with racism. To talk shit about nordic and white people will not get things better. Nordic people are indeed a BEAUTIFUL and blessed. Triying to prove otherwise will make you look like a clown and envious. Instead you should prove that your own people is also beautiful and your women are feminine al well in order to debunke what Erik have said.

Masculinity and Feminity ins't a matter of racial origin. It's a matter of eugenics. There exist masculine and feminine woman all over the world. Some tribes or nations have got more masculine woman simply because their men were unsuccessful selecting the most feminine woman traits to give birth to a more femine offspring. It's the seletion of the fittest. Anyone adventuring through Africa will realize that among tribes there are those who possess more feminine women and other that lies on the masculine side. A successful eugenic is displayed in a tribe where the men look masculine and the women come up feminine.

Brazil isn't different. One can spot masculine and feminine woman wherever he goes.

Concerning the ongoing subject. Heidi Klum is by far more nordic looking than the fake-lipped russian top model. People out there still rely so much on FAKE anthropology to describe what europeans are and are not. Classification as nordic, alpine, dinaric, boberry, faelid and med don't stand as a solid science. It's junk 1930 anthropology not even accepted by current academics. Read serious papers and you will never see these terms being cited.

1930 fake anthroplogy describes nordic people as a tall, slender, dolicocephalic, long-faced, blond, straight-nosed, blue-eyed people. It even goes far trying to connect for example a long-nosed from England with a long-nosed from India when in reality they developed such traits independently. Pure junk "science". Nordic people are simply the people of Northern Europe. They come up in different shapes, hair and eyes color. Swedish people possess either thin or broad traits as long as spaniards, portugueses, french, english and on.

Heidi looks more nordic than Karoline because her phenotype is more likely to be found in germanic countries. A long nose and a long face alone doesn't make a person looks nordic. I can bring up some long faced-nosed swendish woman to contrast with Karoline and all you see how they differ too much. Nordic although diverse usually have very sharper traits. There is something so eastern about Karoline that simply doens't fit the western phenotype. To be honest Karoline doesn't look like a classic slavic at all. The prevalent phenotype in slavic countries display bulbous and rounded traits while in the Western It's more rectangular. Of course rounded traits as much as rectangular forms can be found vastly in either slavic or western countries. Have you never heard of the expression football heads used to describe slavic people sometimes?

A long faced-nosed slavic usually looks different from a long faced-nosed nordic. I'm able to found Spaniards (even brunettes) that match the scandinavian traits more than those of slavic people. Slavics, although not always, usually don't fit in Western Europe. If long traits are a ticket for nordic label then a blond arab would be even more nordic than nordic people themselves.

Even slavics differ between them. Polish for example look way more western than russian although in a eastern way.

Brazilian,

I have never heard anyone call any race "football heads." Seriously, how do expect to make an intelligent point using retarded terminology? LMAO! I have seriously never heard anyone say the words football head. WTF?

Acctually I'm not calling them football heads. I'm just describing what I have heard from others who are not even related to myself. It's not even a racial slur. If you simply interprets things that way I suppose you visit this blog in order to get into fights. WTF?

Well, I'm not european and I live in Brazil. Saying it as common was really a guess of mine. I'm not sure about that. I've heard that from a few germans and swedish. Maybe they were some very isolated cases.

You sound like that Emily chick posing to be someone from Brazil lmao

I never said it was racist. I just said I never heard anyone actually say the words: football head to describe anything, especially a head shape or a certain groups head shape! lmao I just think its a funny and semi-retarded way of looking at something lol

Brazil,

I do think you have some good points though. The people on this website, which is clearly racist especially to black people (did you see those pictures! OMG! so not cool), should not fight with racism. Two wrongs do not make a right, so you have a good point there

As I said you are there to get into fights. I don't like such attitude: people dressed in good intentions to cause mess. Saying I sound as Emily posing as a brazilian will just make others that dislike her want to bash me.

I disagree so much with this site. Trying to compare "races" sound so childsh and backward. I think there should be a feminine beauty site only for black and another for asians. I do think this site is racist towards blacks and I also think many black guests are racist concerning whites. This site's author also bash too much the women who don't fit his feminine standards. Erik semms not able to understand that high cheekbones and broad facial traits don't make a woman looks manly. He simply goes too far trying to split feminine from masculine. According to Erik asian women are masculine because they have high ckeekbones. Absurdity! I'll never take him seriously.

Moreover this site isn't totally pointless. Although Erik misinterprets and make up facts, he has got some good points about the bizarre fashion world.

Ching Chang: Geographic breast size distribution is hardly a topic worthy of scientific investigation, but a company that makes bras needs the information for inventory control and better allocation of resources. So citing a survey by such a company is appropriate. The survey results were reported in many places apart from The Sun. So the find stands that Northern European women lean toward larger breasts among European women. I have had a discussion about this issue previously, and you should start here and not bring up this topic unless you have something new to say.

You also said that “one major reason blonde hair and blue eyes were so selected in Nordic countries is because the soft colors softened and feminized the look of otherwise small breasted angular sharp featured women.” Firstly you have no citations about the smaller breasts. Secondly, as to the need for light hair and light eye coloring to soften the hard facial appearance of Nordic women, this is ridiculous. I am not a fan of Emily’s approach, namely posting individual pictures since one could be accused of selection bias, but average facial features are better compared in group photographs drawn from similar settings. I happened to come across some pictures from an international meet showing group photos of representatives from different countries, all being young adults. This is a good example of employing controls: people drawn from a similar setting and representing regular or ordinary individuals from their nations.

So here are four relevant group photographs from this setting, along a north-south gradient: Swedes, Greeks, people from Bahrain and Moroccans (these are large pictures, and the reader may want to right-click and download them to a folder).

It should be obvious that the Swedes have finer facial features than the other groups in the pictures, on average. You can seek other venues that offer suitable controls and the general find would be finer facial features in the Nordic populations, on average.

Brazilian: I am not being bitter toward non-European populations. Some arguments may be unflattering, but this is not the same as bitterness. And don’t accuse me of throwing in personal opinion. I try to avoid making major arguments while heavily relying on personal opinion.

You said I made a mistake comparing Europeans to non-European populations, but what has been the need for a comparison? The need has been to determine whether beauty can be objectively compared across populations. This is relevant to international beauty pageants. This comparison cannot by itself be racist. It could be racist if the comparison concluded with assigning groups along superior-inferior lines without empirical justification, but the conclusion offered within this site is that the objective comparison is not possible.

You said that masculine and feminine women are found in all populations. What is the point? Everyone knows this. And this has nothing to do with eugenics.

You talked about fake anthropology from the 1930s and terms such as Nordic, Alpine, etc. not being accepted by current academics. On the other hand, you also wrote, “Heidi looks more nordic than Karoline because her phenotype is more likely to be found in germanic countries.” So you do realize, as does anyone that has observed people from different geographic populations, that people resemble more closely related people more than more distantly related individuals. Before the mid-20th century, some anthropologists described the nuances of geographic variation in physical appearance and came up with various terms, based on a cluster of features, to describe this variation. The terms are less important than the reality the terms are trying to capture.

And what is this reality? The reality is that as long as you pick a sufficient number of features, long-nosed Swedes will cluster with short-nosed Swedes before clustering with long-nosed non-Swedes. This was as true in the 1930s as it is today. So a change in terminology is irrelevant, and the terms you refer to were dropped for political reasons, not because they didn’t correspond to reality.

You have written things like “A long nose and a long face alone doesn't make a person looks Nordic” and “1930 fake anthroplogy describes nordic people as a tall, slender, dolicocephalic, long-faced, blond, straight-nosed, blue-eyed people.” But these are strawmen. No serious physical anthropologist in the 1930s, just as today, would base ethnic classification on the twin features comprising of nose and face length. Neither could any physical anthropologist have failed to notice that 40% or more of Nordic people don’t have blue eyes or that two-thirds of Nordic adults don’t have blond hair. But they noticed that the Nordics were among the taller and less likely to be obese Europeans. They also noticed that some geographic regions in Scandinavia, such as Southern Sweden, tended to have more of the light-haired and fine-featured people, and so on. So they proposed terms describing regional population clusters within the Nordic lands, acknowledging the overlap between clusters. One could debate these terms provided that straw men are set aside but one cannot dispute the existence of regional clusters. They are there for all to see. Your beef should be with the amateurs abusing early- and mid-twentieth century anthropological literature at various bulletin boards.

I am not bashing women who don’t fit my “feminine standards.” Unflattering comparisons are not the same as bashing, and the goal is to promote feminine beauty rather than to undermine the others.

You should not put words in my mouth. You have accused me of making the argument that high cheekbones and broad facial traits make a woman look manly, whereas I have said that higher cheekbones contribute to a more masculine look though high cheekbones by themselves will not make a woman look masculine, and I have also said that more feminine faces tend to be wider in shape.

You even wrote that according to me, Asian women are masculine because they have high cheekbones! You think someone capable of coming up with this site would make an argument like this? The differences between European and East Asian faces are overwhelmingly due to factors unrelated to masculinity-femininity, and as everyone should know, masculine and feminine women are found in all populations. And you better understand what is meant by high cheekbones.

You must not accuse me of misrepresenting and making up facts without justifying these charges.

Wow i really activated this page! hehe i feel good
Erik you haven't replied to me yet :(
It was just a simple Q or a few

"I am not a fan of Emily’s approach, namely posting individual pictures since one could be accused of selection bias, but average facial features are better compared in group photographs drawn from similar settings. I happened to come across some pictures from an international meet showing group photos of representatives from different countries, all being young adults. This is a good example of employing controls: people drawn from a similar setting and representing regular or ordinary individuals from their nations."

Sometimes you have to use individual photos since it is very difficult to find group photos where you see people from only the ethnic group you want to demonstrate. Also, these group photos may not be of people who are the best representatives of their country or ethnic group - depending on a lot of factors - for example from which part of a region the people in the pictures are from, on whether or not they are athletes, actors, or represent minor fractions of some sort that wouldn't give an appropriate and balanced picture.

For example, showing a group picture of people attending a diet class would give you the impression that the people the pictures represent are generally more or less obese. In order to give you a whole, complete picture that is as fair and representative of a people as possible, it is therefore almost always necessary to show individual photos, also. When possible I have also shown group photos of all ethnicities I was discussing, so one shouldn't imply that I only use individual photos.

Furthermore, in order to demonstrate the typical femininity and beauty of a people it's not always possible to find that in a group picture, so group photos have limited value, unless you only want to demonstrate typical anthropological features. What I have done is to show typical examples of people who accurately represent true ethnic Nordics, people you would actually see when you visit the region, since that's what people are interested in, I think. I avoided the most attractive and least attractive people regardless of ethnicity in order to give a fair picture.

I prefer to show ordinary people in ordinary settings, the ones you will actually see when you visit a country - not top models or actresses, such as is often the case here when people show unrepresentative examples of half- Indian and half-Asian models and actresses purporting to represent ordinary people in those regions. When I have shown Nordic models it has been in direct response to people starting posting model pictures that not represent ordinary people, since only models should be compared to models, ordinary people to ordinary people, and so on.

Regarding accusations of bias this is something that is impossible to avoid completely unless you always say what people WANT you to say, rather than stating the objective truth or the opinion that the majority holds. You have been attacked here so many times now by people who feel somehow left out and unable to measure up. They talk about themselves, describing their looks, and somehow mean that they are relevant, even though they are just one individual. I never understand why people take this so personally. It is not always possible to live up to ideals of beauty and femininity.

If we would let people's insecurities prevent us from discussing and demonstrating beauty and femininity we would not do honesty and beauty much justice. I think the problem is that women who feel deeply insecure browse the net for sites dealing with beauty, seeking validation from those sites, and when they don't find it and instead feel judged you will see this circus and personal attacks on you and on everybody else they perceive as the "enemy". It's unfortunate but not unavoidable, since people, tragically, browse these sites looking mainly for personal validation. The truth is acceptable only as long as it reinforces their preferred image of themselves.

For example, the group photo of the Swedes is very nice but I have never in my life seen a Swede with the kind of moustache that the man on the left has, so that would be an example of an unrepresentative Swede, since people might think that Swedes generally sport these kinds of moustaches. Hihihi

Correction;

"It's unfortunate but not AVOIDABLE, since people, tragically, browse these sites looking mainly for personal validation."

EMILY!!!!!!!!!!! EMILY!!!!!!!!!!!! Darling what do i have to get your attention????
Do i have to call you a BITCH or start posting pictures of unattractive Nords???

Anyways my love you have contradicted yourself many times!!! I don't know how this picture thing works but i will give it a go...

http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo62/picturesofswedes/l8.jpg

Do i see a weak chin and a broadish nose? Why don't you post pictures of your "goddesses" in different angles? Surely they look beautiful from any angle right?

Oh and nice try passing Channing Tatum as a nordic male...I am sure you know he has some native blood?
As well that other male model that posed in the underwear commercial...I find him unattractive due to his abnormally robust cheekbones....some people who didn't know better will call it feminine but its not!
Also my dearest if your going to post pictures of "feminine" Nordic women...read Eril's posts again and look at their facial features. Many of them have narrow faces, angular chins (not rounded), thin lips, deep set/close set eyes, protuding eyebrow ridges etc etc.... SO much for feminine beauty!
If you think light eyes, light hair, light skin and upturned noses make women feminine and beautiful than your living in a "dream world".
Have you ever thought that the reason some men flock to Sweden and such because these women offer something rare? Blond hair, blue eyes etc... and not particularly because they are feminine or the world's most beautiful.
Now i hope your not going to equate rare phenotype with beauty?
Told you, you had met your match hehehe :D

Emily,

just ignore people. Northern Europeans are obviously extremely attractive. I am not going to go out there and say they are the most attractive, because I haven't been to enough places to determine that. But I just think people shouldn't have to prove anything. You are what you are, you know? Anyone can get all the plastic surgery in the world and its not going to make them any happier. Beauty is useful in successful reproduction and eugenics, beyond that there is little importance in outward beauty. Take care of your body, skin, and take pride in your appearance. But more importantly take care of eachother guys, no matter where you come from:) Even though certain races/sub-races may be less attractive, that doesn't make them any less valuable to our world. It is true some races are more attractive, others smarter, others more athletic, others in the middle. But we are all homo sapiens. I don't believe in that equality crap. I hate worrying about what is "politically correct" these days. However, lets say that we stereotype all Nordics to be the most beautiful people but not very bright and say Asians are the least attractive and most bright. Lets say we change all our social policies to accomodate these groups to what fits them best. What about the Nordic woman that is both beautiful and extremely intelligent? Will she be denied the education and the chance to prove her intelligence if she is stereotyped to only be good at being beautiful? This is why we have to give everyone in the world a fair chance to be the best they can be and offer what they can to our world.

So this website is about beauty, not politics. I get that. But, what I am trying to say is that if one race is more beautiful than another so what? And why are we trying to prove this so much, what is the hidden agenda? Eugenics? Should others races breed less? Well wouldn't we be losing valuable talent and other gains? How ethic and moral is the concept of Eugenics? You have to ask these questions really.

Might I add,

I know this is a stereotype but Asians on average are very intelligent. Let's say there is this hideous Asian woman, but extremely intelligent, should no one mate with her because she is "not feminine" and not beautiful? Will we not lose out on smart genes then?

Therefore selecting a mate is based on many factors besides just attractiveness. Beauty plays only a small role in the whole scheme of things.

I have no idea who "Channing Tatum" is. The one I showed is named Fredrik Ljungberg, a Swedish football player. Check your facts before you accuse people.

Here are pictures of some female national team football players from different countries. Using Erik's method of comparing group photos of women from different countries involved in the same activity, in this case elite football.

China.

Women soccer players - China

Japan.

Women soccer players - Japan

Korea.

Korean women soccer players

Korea.

Women soccer players - Korea

Iran.

Women soccer players - Iran

Brazil.

Women soccer players - Brazil

Nigeria.

Women soccer players - Nigeria

Argentina.

Women soccer players - Argentina

Sweden.

Women soccer players - Sweden

Denmark.

Women soccer players - Denmark

Norway.

Women soccer players - Norway

Norway.

Women soccer players - Norway

Wales.

Women soccer players - Wales

England.

Women soccer players - England

Ukraine.

Women soccer players - Ukraine

Russia.

Women soccer players - Russia

Emily my love!
You responded to me yipee! although indirectly...
This is the picture i am referring to
http://www.femininebeauty.info/sites/default/files/imagepicker/others//thumbs/I1.jpg
Its posted by you in the Eterina or whatever her name is....after posting pictures of Indian men and asking why they don't look like that......which is interesting btw....Your asking why ordinary Indian men don't look like models? yeah...ok

Anyways My dearest first of all i am not Asian or East European...I am Indian.
Second you seem very particular about Feminine beaity than WHY have you posted pictures of female athletes???? Don't you realise that these women will be more "masculinized"???

hehehe I win! :D
and take this :p

You are Indian. How surprising. Look, I don't intend to go into a discussion with you, arguing over who are more attractive, Nordic men or Indian men. I think most people have a clear opinion on that.

Regarding the pictures of football players it is obvious to everyone but you, apparently, that these are not meant to represent feminine women. On the contrary, they are more or less masculine women who are compared to EACH OTHER, within their specific group. An idiot understands this.

I also think it is obvious from these pictures that Scandinavian women are the most attractive and feminine women within this group, exactly as they were in Erik's group example.

Emily must be some gorgeous model herself.

Emily leeches off her races accomplishments in beauty. The ironic thing is that the accomplishments are false. They are known to be very beautiful, but Emily makes them sound like God's gift to planet Earth which they are not.

Emily
First Emily...nice try avoiding my comment on Channing Tatum and others...when your ready to i would love to get into this discussion.
Where have i asked you to discuss with me if Nordic males are better or Indian???
I was simply pointing out that the page where i got that pic it was right under pictures of "regular" Indian men and two different white models....one being Channing Tatum. Go read your Question under the picture. Why are you asking the reader to compare White models with regular Indian men? Now i hope in order to prove your point your not going to post pictures of regular Indian men and compare them with "party men" where they are young, well groomed, in a social environment etc etc....I am referring to the pictures of men that you posted.
Oh Darling give it up! You avoided my comments about the features of women in your pictures. You pointed out the recessive chins of Slavic women....Do you realize that many women's pics that you posted also show weak chins and many with angular manly chins???
Next time try posting pictures of your beauties at different angles...not the most flattering ones. Selection bias anyone???
Also let me clarify...I think many Nordic women are beautiful and feminine and many of the pictures of women you posted look good to me.

Emily, this woman is obviously Ukranian or Russian. What does a Swede have that she doesn't? You can find plenty of these women in Eastern Europe. You just post pictures of the plane Janes in Eastern Europe, with bad makeup hair and teeth. You don't post pictures of the young women that really are in Eastern Europe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBp7g-OvuyU

Her name is Katja, which is obviously a Slavic name if you have any doubts.

I posted a picture of this Channing that had mistakenly been labelled Fredrik Ljungerg. There is a resemblance so the original poster's and my mistake is not hard to forgive. Also, Channing does not in any way look Native American. Give me a break. He looks Nordic/Germanic. I don't think he'd look good in feathers. He's not the type.

Swedish Fredrik Ljungberg.

Fredrik Ljungberg Fredrik Ljungberg

Channing..Native American. Hihi.

Channing Tatum

Emily,
You are so selective and biased its not funny! Its repulsive really
I am amazed Erik hasn't blocked you yet...Maybe if someone starts talking this negatively about his race maybe he will...
Anyways BITCH (yes i called you that) Where did i say Channing looks Native American? I said he has some native American blood so he is not "pure Nordic". I think he is hot much more than that Swedish model with abnormally robust cheekbones.
Darling if/when i learn how to post pics you won't be a match for me!!! I can play your game so well. Trust me don't start...
I have never said i find Nordic people ugly or don't like their skin color, eye color etc. I find beauty in all races. Many Nordic men want to "sleep" with me. They always say i am beautiful...actually i will be visiting Stockhalm soon. Oh i can't wait! But instead of Nordic women...I will be accepting attention from Nordic men hehe. How does that make you feel Emily??? don't be sad :D

The more relevant question is why is Emily being treated seriously. If she's still keeping track of this forum, I expect her to come back with more banal responses. I live in Gothenburg and Stockholm, and travel around much of the EU and United States for business.

I can tell you from the start that our dearest Emily misrepresents the so-called Nordic race quite well. Really, I'm flattered to think that the ideologies used in the 19th century to attempt to unify and energize people, as well as justify the domination of others, describes us so well! I feel like I am now this gorgeous and graceful representative of this league of angels! How it warms my heart.

Unfortunately, nothing could be farther from the truth, and self-fulfilling prophecies of observation are a potent force in cherry picking the evidence. You will find in every country a small group of people who will still defend the 19th century ideologies because admitting the truth is too painful, especially when this image fed to the public was to some an integral part of their identity, perhaps passed down to children and grandchildren. Without it, they feel lost, because even a broken compass gives a sense of security. The most drastic and classic example is the belief in the superiority of the German Reich, especially post-unification. Germany's defeat during World War I causes a major blow to the German ego, because it shattered the ingrained and unquestioned self-image fed to it by the ruling class. The image was fed to the masses not because it was true, but because of the effect it had on unifying a variety of peoples into one nation, which as you can imagine, was easier to govern than a collection of disparate duchies and kingdoms. The reason Hitler was so successful was because he was able to exploit the shame experienced by the Germans. He took the wreckage from the discredited self-image, and glued it back together with a new mythology. Just the same, Emily demonstrates the classic Coue method used to convince her insecure self of a certain self-image. She posts to a forum and tries to convince others because, as she seems to think, truth is established by consensus.

Based on my extensive traveling, I find most Scandinavians to be quite average in appearance as far as Europeans are concerned, and not particularly spectacular on average. I love my country, I love my culture, because they are mine, but there's no sense covering up my impressions. The stereotypes are just that, stereotypes. Anthropologically speaking, colder climates seem to select for wider builds, which makes sense since core body temperature needs to be maintained, and so you'll find that many of our women have a stockier appearance. Body type is predominantly pear-shaped, whereas the model ideal is apple or hourglass. It is a mistake to say that there is a Scandinavian overrepresentation among models, as presently Slavic women form a very large portion of models, and who are often chosen because they have very light pigmentation (eyes, hair and skin) which lends itself to a variety of make-up, and graceful, well-proportioned facial and body features. Certainly, they are not generally Rubenesque (that is, overtly voluptuous), but their features appear to be the preferred prototype for today's modeling (contrasted to the overtly curvaceous models favored during some previous periods in history). Of course, it is bad to generalize about "Eastern Europeans" as there is a variety of ethnicities living in what may be called EE. Russia (much like Kazakhstan) by itself features a mixtures of European, Asian and Turkish people.

Interesting to note, Benjamin Franklin wanted to bar Scandinavians, Italians and a few others from the US because he considered them to be too swarthy. That being said, I do not find all ethnic groups to be on average as attractive, to me, and there is indeed little sexual dimorphism among Asian populaces, but don't buy for a minute that Scandinavians are some exception if you don't want to believe fairy tales manufactured by ideologues, ignorants or the media.

Henrik Bjornsen: There is no misrepresentation of Nordics by Emily. She is not discussing 19th century ideologies, and there is no attempt on her part to justify the domination of other people.

Germany is not being discussed. German ego was not relevant in the aftermath of World War I. Germany had almost won this war but malicious individuals got America involved, and this led to Germany’s defeat. The German mood was one of anger. Germany was forced into the Versailles Treaty. Part of this involved significant loss of German territory. The corresponding German response was anger and increased nationalist fervor. The Versailles Treaty also bankrupted Germany. The corresponding German response was anger and frustration. Where does ego come into the picture? Besides, Emily’s answers do not indicate an insecure woman.

Weimar Germany or even Nazi Germany did not espouse a belief in German superiority. The Nazis admired Northern European features and half of Germans were not ethnically Northern European. So how could the Nazis promote the notion of German superiority? You might also want to consider the following picture of the ideal German soldier, used by Nazis as a recruitment tool.

Werner Goldberg, The Ideal German Soldier

If you think that his blue eyes, blond hair and general Aryan looks were the main reasons why he was chosen by the Nazis, you would be correct. But who was this individual? He was Werner Goldberg. Why would the Nazis knowingly pick a Goldberg (Werner was half Jew) to portray the ideal German soldier if they believed in German ethnic superiority? There are many examples like this from Nazi Germany. For instance, there was half Jew Colonel Walter Hollaender, who received Hitler’s Deutschblütigkeitserklärung and the following military awards: Ritterkreuz, German-Cross in Gold, EKI, EKII, and Close Combat Badge. In another example, the half Jew Luftwaffe General Helmut Wilberg was not only the recipient of the military awards of Hohenzollern's Knight’s Cross with Swords, EKI and EKII, he was also declared an Aryan by Hitler in 1935.

Being a Swede you will naturally find average Swedes average looking and nothing special because they are the people you have grown among. Emily is addressing average Swedes vs. average non-Nordics.

Regarding colder climates selecting wider builds, Nordics don’t show cold adaptations. They have shorter trunks than East Asians. Among Europeans, they are a long-legged people and have a less obesity-prone build. They are not a stocky people.

Nobody here is talking about Scandinavian overrepresentation among models. The issue is Nordic overrepresentation. Nordic people have been among the major founders of Russia and the Ukraine. The word Russia comes from the Rus people, a branch of the Vikings. Between Russia and the Ukraine, we are looking at around 180 million people whereas Scandinavians number around 20 million people. Even with a lower proportion of its population being ethnically Nordic, the absolute number of Nordic-looking people (light pigmentation in skin, hair, eyes; fine facial features, etc.) is substantial in Russia-Ukraine compared to Scandinavia. And if you look at the top Eastern European models, you won’t see a lot of obviously Slavic-looking ones. If you look at pictures of attractive people from Russian and the Ukraine compiled by people who are from these nations, they will usually feature Nordic-looking people.

I am interested in writing by Benjamin Franklin that he wanted to bar Scandinavian immigration because he thought them to be a swarthy people. This would be remarkable. Back then most Americans didn’t want European people outside of Northern/Northwestern Europe to immigrate to the United States, but the reason wasn’t swarthiness or presumed inferiority. If you look at the champions of keeping America Northern European, not only did they not put forth Nordic supremacist viewpoints, they came up with very different arguments. Madison Grant believed Southern Europeans to be artistically superior and possibly intellectually superior to Nordic whites. William Vaile espoused similar viewpoints. The best example comes from Australia. Alfred Deakin, the architect of white Australia policy, wanted to keep Australia white. His argument? Whites are inferior to non-whites on too many important measures and hence non-whites must be kept out because their superiority makes them a threat to whites!

This site is not about politics, especially politics that bears no resemblance to what actually transpired. It is about looks.

Ok Erik,

So how come Hitler killed all those Jewish people regardless of what they looked like? How come that guy in the pic above won all those awards for looking "Aryan" lmao but all the rest of the Jews were killed off, despite the fact that some if not many could pass for Aryan just as the one above in the pic. Please answer my question I am so intrigued to know what your answer will be.

By the way how come you haven't responded to my answer about homosexuals and pedophilia?

And lmao, Hitler and his Jewish shoulders just proves how twisted that man was. Hitler also had a fetish for being deficated on believe it or not. sick sick sick man.

Erik,

Are you defending Emily? Are you defending Hitler?

In short are you justifying the murder of million people just because of race?

You and Emily are insecure, ugly people who feels compelled to put down other people's appearance in order to feed your own ego.

I am sorry but you will never be happy till you have got rid of this insecurity.

Hitler fed the germans lies and he fed that insecurity so he could gain power but there will always be good people who will cut you down as evidenced by History.

Godis: I would like to know myself why Hitler went after Jews. The proceedings of Nazi Germany are not something that I am interested in, but I have had to look up two things about the Nazis: their concept of beauty and their attitude toward homosexuals. The beauty issue should be self-evident; someone coming up with this site is bound to look up Nazi beauty standards at some point. The homosexuality material was part of my examining homosexual issues. The topic of political orientation and attitude toward homosexuality came up, and the Nazi view/treatment of homosexuals simply had to be looked up.

On the beauty issue I learned that the Nazis admired Northern European features and that the concept of them promoting German superiority was nonsense, which I addressed in my previous comment. On the homosexuality issue, I came across a complex picture of Nazi attitudes that is off-topic for this site, but the conclusion – after also taking into account the attitudes, through time, of organized religion and the communists/leftists – was basically lack of an association between political orientation and attitude toward homosexuality. Similarly, on the Jewish dislike issue, I expect a complex picture given the examples of Werner Goldberg, Walter Hollaender, Helmut Wilberg and many others like them in the Reich, as well as other amazing facts such as much Nazi philosophy being based on the work of the Nazi Alfred Rosenberg, another Jewish individual.

I have never heard of Hitler liking to play with feces. If true, then he was mentally ill. Answering your question on homosexuality and pedophilia is a low priority issue because it has already been answered. A link a few comments above the page where you left your comment on pedophilia cites all the evidence you need to consider; other comments have appeared elsewhere. If I have to repeat myself, then I need to find the free time first.

Voice of Unreason: How can you ask me whether I was defending Hitler or “justifying the murder of million people just because of race”? Begone! There is no place for hysterical inferences – that do not follow in any way whatsoever from the arguments – at this site.

I wouldn’t put it as defending Emily. The problem is that beauty apparently cannot be discussed without some people bringing in Nazi Germany and assigning genocidal or enslaving or domineering ambitions to some of the participants. Such individuals need to be stopped in their tracks before they ruin the discussion.

Regarding your notion of ego and insecurity problems, this tripe has come up before and exposed for the nonsense it is. Behold academic research on self-esteem: people espousing a higher opinion of themselves/their group tend to have higher self-esteem/ego; they don’t do so to put down others in order to make themselves feel better/overcome their insecurities. Besides, the notion behind this site is to exalt certain looks rather than to put down various looks.

Voice of Reason,

"You and Emily are insecure, ugly people who feels compelled to put down other people's appearance in order to feed your own ego."

:)

Erik,

"Regarding your notion of ego and insecurity problems, this tripe has come up before and exposed for the nonsense it is. Behold academic research on self-esteem: people espousing a higher opinion of themselves/their group tend to have higher self-esteem/ego; they don’t do so to put down others in order to make themselves feel better/overcome their insecurities. Besides, the notion behind this site is to exalt certain looks rather than to put down various looks."

I disagree with this nonesense! Personally i have above average self esteem BUT i don't have a high opinion of either my Ethnic or "sexuality" background. I TOTALLY AGREE that people tend to put down others in order for themselves to feel better at some level. Have you ever experienced racism? homophobia? Then don't say things like Behold this and Behold that....As if it was sent from the heavens lol
Another way to look at it would be that people who have a high opinion of themselves tend to have a higher opinion of their ethnic group BUT people need validation / a comparison group by which to evaluate their "supremity". This leads/can lead to putting down the others/thinking of the others as inferior comparatively.
This is a complex issue. A person who is Nordic could think highly of himself and his group but for non insecurity problems think "they" are better than others. OR a "closeted" homosexual can be homophobic to take attention off from him or other reasons...in this case insecurities are present.
If you think Emily is reasonable and doesn't have "issues" then you must be deluded!
I would be happy to talk more about you and Emily....You know where to find me :)

You said "Behold academic research on self-esteem: people espousing a higher opinion of themselves/their group tend to have higher self-esteem/ego"

The paper is about self esteem and not ego, either you have not understood that or you're trying to infer it is the same.

Self esteem is one's confidence in terms of looks, intelligence and Ego is one's deluded pride or vanity. They are as different as chalk and cheese. Similarly your website equates feminity with beauty which isn't always the case.

I am a woman and I know I am beautiful/attractive but I don't go around espousing a higher opinion because I am not CONCEITED and DELUDED. In short I am not mad, what matters is that you are likeable, approachable by everyone and I think that's what is true beauty.

Beauty is transient, it comes and goes. What was a flower will wither and dry and rot with time.

People's opinion of how superior they are in terms of race or looks tend to come from their own insecurity and intolerance. This is what has caused genocides and ethnic cleansing. It is a madness.

All you and Emily have done is just defend yourself because you are constantly being shouted down by others because of your deluded ego.

Emily must be hiding her head in shame, she is not even around to defend herself anymore.

Voice of Unreason: Self-esteem and ego (not used much in mainstream psychology) capture largely the same idea notwithstanding specific linguistic usage where ego is used to suggest conceit. Ego basically refers to one’s concept of oneself. See: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ego (not a good source because ego has been used extensively in philosophy and psychoanalysis, but ego captures the concept of self-esteem to a large degree)

This site does not equate beauty with femininity as it would be obvious to anyone with basic understanding of science and one who has made an effort to read enough of this site. This site meticulously documents numerous correlates of beauty that are unrelated to femininity.

You may believe that true beauty is likeability and approachability, but this site has nothing to do with this true beauty. It is about looks.

You think genocide / ethnic cleansing stem from beliefs of superiority? There have been a lot of reasons. There is also sociological literature showing political orientation varying in a single dimension (e.g., left vs. right) but behavior varying in two or more dimensions, i.e., belief in superiority is not necessarily related to discriminatory behavior and may be related to benevolent behavior.

I don’t think Emily is hiding her head in shame. It is a waste of time arguing with the voice of unreason. She can move on, but I have no choice because I run this site. Begone!

Peter: Spare us your poor comments. You may disagree with the “nonsense” that happens to be scientific research, but you may not express your disagreement here unless you have a comparably scholarly counter argument. The statistical trend has been clearly documented: higher self-esteem/self-worth goes with more prejudiced beliefs about others.

Of course you can have high self-esteem but not a high opinion of your ethnic group or sexual orientation. This would not contradict anything I said. When one talks about someone’s self-esteem, the reference is to global self-esteem. A specific form of esteem can be quite different from global self-esteem.

Whereas someone may attempt to put down others to feel better about himself, if someone is putting down others, it cannot be assumed that this person is doing so to feel better about himself. After all, “putting down others” may simply be an accurate description of these people.

I didn’t say anything about Emily being reasonable or whether she has issues or not. You have been warned about putting words in my mouth. Don’t do it again.

Erik,

I am interested in knowing whoose descendents these people that reside in south asia who are known as the kalash people are i.e what is there physical make up? There are theories of them being the descendets of alexander the greats army (greeks) I think the most breathtakingly beautiful women in the world reside in south asia kashmiris, pathans/pashtuns of north west federation/frontier of pakistan and the kalash. I dont find europeans in the current sense whom i see in europe including nordics/scandanivians to be beautifull in the sense of anything beyond your earthly kind of beauty but i find these people the kalash who dont look european to me withstanding hair, eye and skin colour tone there physical features and overall look are quiete different to europeans they would never be mistaken for a european you see today they are very beautifull.

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/kalash-girl_.jpg

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/kalash-girl_.jpg&imgrefurl=http://pastmist.wordpress.com/2009/02/21/nord-pakistan-kalash-du-chitral/&usg=__u7tUqjb451Dk4fAjy17kakXUUZo=&h=333&w=500&sz=154&hl=en&start=1&um=1&

Voice of Reason,
Wow! I like you!
You seem like a really nice lady/girl?
You seem to know what "true beauty" really is all about :)

Erik,
I am going to be direct with you. I have noticed in your responses to me you always say things like i am annoying, all i do is post is nonesense, i am foul etc etc. Why?
Are you trying to put me down? lol
Well it ain't working honey ;)
I think i know why you have this "attitude" towards me. I call it the triple whammy!

I know you posted this in another (Ekaterina) discussion but who is putting words in whose mouth?

Submitted by Erik on Tue, 03/17/2009 - 02:53.
Adressed to Emily
"I know you are a reasonable person..."

"Whereas someone may attempt to put down others to feel better about himself, if someone is putting down others, it cannot be assumed that this person is doing so to feel better about himself. After all, “putting down others” may simply be an accurate description of these people."

I am sorry but i am not quite sure what your trying to say? Does the last sentence mean that people who are "put down" by others have low confidence etc... and therefore are easily influenced/affected by what people say?

Also erik the points you make on self esteem/ego etc I totally agree with you. A while back you mentioned europeans have lower self esteem on average compared to majority if not all other races/groups of people. If high self esteem/ego is related to a high opinion of yourself then if taking physical appearance into account is it that europeans dont have a high opinion of themselves or there looks?

Also you mentioned somewhere before (perhaps i have understood it wrong) about it not being true of northern europeans to mix with other races I disagree history is abundant with examples of european mixes where people have freely and happily mixed, it is true and natural that if various races of human populations meet or come face to face they are likely to against all odds eventually end up mixing and europeans are no exception or anything special in this regard just as it is true and natural of races to mix it is also true and natural of races to not mix except with there own racial composition or likeness.

I dont agree that all europeans who end up mixing with a non european will prefer a whiter version in your words to what they have, yes there are cases where they might but there are plenty of cases where they wont. You are right not everyone can or will get there preferences but what should stop europeans not getting there preferences after all they have all the freedom in the world.

"Henrik Bjornsen"

Not a Swedish name.

As for Franklin, it's perhaps likely most of the "Scandinavians" he was exposed to were Finns.

Erik you havnt answered my question, please can you get back to me on it. Thank you.

Erik

Is there any reason you havnt answered my question, i notice that whenever anybody leaves an off topic or topics so very indirectly related to the website i.e this peter and emily character have done on numerous occasions you respond to there comments but yet when someone leaves something related to the website or beauty you dont seem to respond. whats the point of allowing people to leave comments when the only ones you seem interested in answering are the ones that have no relevence to the site.

you wrote
"Whereas this site argues that it is not possible to objectively compare the attractiveness of different ethnic groups, the argument is technical and abstract. In practice, people generally regard Europeans or whiter-looking people among their own better looking"

I certainly do not regard europeans as better looking though i agree that most people find whiter looking people amongst there own better looking which i would say is more closer to the point than "people generally regard Europeans" better looking.

Peter: I am not trying to put you down. I am trying to make you understand that your poor comments are not welcome here. You should do the honorable thing and move on. Or be made to move on.

My statement, “I didn’t say anything about Emily being reasonable or whether she has issues or not” is a reference to your commenting on my reply to Voice of Reason, which didn’t address Emily’s reasonableness or her issues.

My calling Emily a reasonable person in a comment addressed to her, in response to a different article, is not related to my putting words in your mouth or anyone else’s. Emily is reasonable as in someone who can be reasoned with. Emily is also reasonable as in someone who has mostly left reasonable comments.

At her worst, she self-destructed because of people like you. She made it a point to ignore useless and foul commentary by you, prompting you to bait her, as in the following example (see earlier on in the comments on this article):

EMILY!!!!!!!!!!! EMILY!!!!!!!!!!!! Darling what do i have to get your attention????

Do i have to call you a BITCH or start posting pictures of unattractive Nords???

Alas! She took the bait and destructed. Again, do the honorable thing and leave.

Kalash: I hope you realize that I am not under any obligation to answer your or anyone else’s questions. There are many unanswered questions here.

Why are comments allowed here? I occasionally get useful feedback or criticism, which is what matters to me.

When replying to comments, I try to reply to comments that don’t take a lot of my time, comments that feature more serious criticisms of my arguments, and comments coming from troublemakers (hoping to put an end to their troublemaking).

Replying to other comments is a lower priority matter. Some people mention issues that have already been addressed. I need to have spare time to repeat my arguments. Less relevant/off-topic issues are also a low priority matter unless they are coming from troublemakers.

I admit that some on-topic questions have gone unanswered because the troublemakers have taken a lot of my time or I forgot about them because I have been caught up with too many things.

Two points you have brought up are irrelevant to this site. The first was the ethnic origin of the Kalash. The second was something to do with mixing of ethnic groups. I don’t recall what I said, but I doubt it was what you have stated, and I am positive that whatever I wrote was an attempt, that was unsuccessful, to prevent a political discussion of the issue of ethnic mixing. This site is not about the topic of ethnic mixing or any political issues associated with it.

The third issue you brought up was, in relation to self-esteem, whether Europeans don’t have a high opinion of their looks? Again, this is tangential to this site.

The fourth issue you mentioned started as, “I certainly do not regard Europeans as better looking …” This was in response to my reply to Paul elsewhere. I don’t need to respond to this because what I said to Paul had nothing to do with your preferences.

I will answer what I can.

Different European, Middle Eastern (some part-European) and European-like central Asian populations have passed through SouthWest Asia. Which of these left their impact on some local tribes is difficult to answer without much investigation. The other possible explanation of the lighter pigmentation/more European features in your example of the Kalash girl is indigenous development, but we note that different tribes that have been long-term residents of the same small geographic region but largely practicing inbreeding can be different in average pigmentation/features. This is consistent with a foreign input leading to more European looks, which is consistent with various genetic studies and archeological evidence.

If the European element has been diluted by local elements, then this would account for why many of the people, in spite of having light pigmentation, have an ethnic look distinguishing them from Europeans. Or the input could be from central Asian migrants that had lighter features but facial features different from Europeans to start with.

Years ago there was a rudimentary genetic study examining whether some of the tribes in southwest Asia showed descent from Greeks (Alexander’s Greek-Macedonian army). They didn’t find much useful data. But there are a couple of problems here. The genetic study was rudimentary. A Greek-Macedonian input would have been diluted in 2,300 years even if we assume that it was substantial in the beginning. And, most people in the Greek-Macedonia area today hardly descend from the upper class/warrior people in the Greek-Macedonia area that Alexander led on his way to conquer most of the then-known world.

Regarding self-esteem related to looks (body esteem), if you were to ask Europeans whether they have a higher opinion of their looks than those of other ethnic groups, then the majority will indicate a higher opinion of European looks, but if you were to survey how individuals feel about their own personal looks, then European will on average have lower regard for their own personal looks than those in a number of populations, particularly African and Pacific Islander populations.

Emily is also reasonable as in someone who has mostly left reasonable comments.

At her worst, she self-destructed because of people like you. She made it a point to ignore useless and foul commentary by you, prompting you to bait her, as in the following example (see earlier on in the comments on this article):

lol Erik, maybe she destructed because she is not that bright in certain aspects. Maybe she self-destructed because half the crap that she typed was just crap. A reasonable person? Honestly. Wow. Just wow. Really? Did you read the crap she wrote?

You claim that the reason she acted the way she did was because people "baited" her. If she was wise or had half a brain she would not respond to the bait. Everyone gets hot headed sometimes and writes things they regret later, but she took it so far. It was a reflection of her character. Emily doesn't write here anymore because she has no integrity or honor left. She lacks morals, respect for others and respect for herself. She acted like a stuck up girl whom obviously has low self-confidence.

In your "special" world, lack of self-esteem is good sometimes. Northern Europeans are not satisfied, that is why they strive for the better right? Everyone else who has good self-esteem is happy with the way they are. They stop evolving or improving because they are happy with the minimum right? But no not Northern Europeans, they will never be happy because they are always looking to be better. Whatever. It's all bull crap. Again, you put "Nordics" or "Northern Europeans" on a pedestal. This is why they are not lazy like all the other races right? You have interesting biased ideas about Nordics. You like Emily obviously believe they are somehow superior. You are probably one of those people that believe that Nordics somehow had to do with anything successful such as Ancient Egypt, the Roman Empire, you can probably find a way to hold them responsible for why the ancient Mayans were so intelligent as well. Because somehow where there is any sign of intelligence,progress,greatness, the Nordics had something to do with it, when in my opinion they had little to do with anything really. Then you claim Emily has high self-esteem because she has so much pride.

This is not true. People who have too much pride have low-self esteem. Their pride is a reflection of what they are trying to do to themselves: Lie to themselves. Emily lies to herself and lies to others. She has to attach herself to a superior "race" because without that identity she would have no identity or worth to herself. She knows she is an average bland girl, but pretends she is part of a group of angels(Nordics) shat out of heaven. This complex she has about herself is just the result of low-self esteem.

Healthy self-esteem regards someone who can recognize their special characteristics, but also someone who can recognize they are not perfect and that they should also try to better themselves and the society around them.

Emily does not have healthy self-esteem. Most people don't. But most people don't go around posting crap. She also has to put down whole races to make herself feel "special". Please. You could do all the research you want on the subject I don't care. Sometimes science can be an embarrassment because its not really science. These days everything gives you cancer, and it takes scientists billions of dollars to prove common sense things. Sometimes I read a new scientific study and I ask myself, " It took them a study to figure this out? Really". So you cannot convince me what self-esteem is with a bullcrap article that proves nothing. I know from 20yrs of experience how it applies to people. When you have something reasonable that is worth reading, show me. Even though I am being a hippocrite because I haven't actually read that article. I'll admit it. But what you are writing makes no sense and I got a very high score on the reading section of my standardized tests, ivy league kind of score, I don't think I am misunderstanding, I really do believe, from what you write, the study is flawed.

And when I say, "Nordics had little to do with anything", I don't mean like literally they didn't accomplish anything, but I am saying I don't believe they were involved in EVERYTHING that was successful and great and advancing.

"Kalash: I hope you realize that I am not under any obligation to answer your or anyone else’s questions. There are many unanswered questions here."

Yes ofcourse I understand you are under no obligation to answer ayones questions on here i never thought otherwise.

"The second was something to do with mixing of ethnic groups. I don’t recall what I said, but I doubt it was what you have stated, and I am positive that whatever I wrote was an attempt, that was unsuccessful, to prevent a political discussion of the issue of ethnic mixing".

Thats why i stated in brackets (perhaps i have understood it wrong) because I couldnt find the exact quote.

"The fourth issue you mentioned started as, “I certainly do not regard Europeans as better looking …” This was in response to my reply to Paul elsewhere. I don’t need to respond to this because what I said to Paul had nothing to do with your preferences."

I was not looking for a response to this comment as I fully realised when i wrote it that the comment was linked to individual in this case my preferences.

"Regarding self-esteem related to looks (body esteem), if you were to ask Europeans whether they have a higher opinion of their looks than those of other ethnic groups, then the majority will indicate a higher opinion of European looks, but if you were to survey how individuals feel about their own personal looks, then European will on average have lower regard for their own personal looks than those in a number of populations, particularly African and Pacific Islander populations."

You have confirmed exactly what I was thinking and if i have understood you correctly that europeans do have a higher opinion of the looks of there ethnic group as a whole than some other ethnic groups but on an individual basis they dont have a high opinion on average of there looks compared to many other populations. This is exactly the kind of impression i got from reading this emily girls posts.

Thank you for getting back to me Erik.

link | Submitted by Erik on Thu, 04/30/2009 - 05:25.
Godis: I would like to know myself why Hitler went after Jews

Maybe Money/economics because they were hording up wealth?

Erik,
"OH no you didn't!" *says it ghetto style* haha

When i read your comments in that other post about Emily being reasonable and me being solely (your words, but then you contradict yourself) resposible for making Emily "self destruct"...I grinned and then questioned your judgement.
In case i need to refresh your memory...After her racist and homophobic comments do you not think i could have EASILY self destructed and stooped down to her level? and made nasty comments about Nordics? BUT OFF course that passed by you.
What did i do? I posted a picture of me smiling But she kept going on about faeces.
That is my personality...Nothing you or anyone can say that will make me "feel bad". As mentioned i am very confident in my looks and have above average self esteem. I have dealt with racists, homophobes, idiots etc all my life face to face. So nothing someone hiding behind their computer suffering from low self esteem can say that will make me feel depressed.
Also in case you didn't notice...I didn't take off my pictures after Emily made unflattering comments about my looks. Why? because i have nothing to hide (to some degree). I could have easily taken off my pics so other people don't notice what Emily has pointed out.
There were a few reasons for me posting my pics. They were aimed at "educating" Emily. She was going on about Indians having hooked noses, robust features etc. I have none of these. Her assumption was only half white or models/actors could possess these. I cannot do anything about my complexion...which she picked on. So after all skin color does matter doesn't it Erik?

"These Indians will also be found to be among the better looking ordinary Indians by Swedes because their face shapes are closer to European norms – skin color will usually not be an issue for Swedes or Europeans in general"

You have called me annoying, trouble maker etc. What is this? Ad hominem? Somewhere else you also called me exasperating.
Also i cannot count how many times you have told Emily "don't take Peter's bait". Seems to me like you are "fathering" her. She is an adult? and can take responsibility for her actions.
She is responsible for the words she used...not me! This would be the same case, where i walk out on the street in flamboyant clothing and get attacked by homophobes. Who is to blame? Me? for provoking them? or their own hate/insecurity?
I am glad there was "condemnation" by some users here. Good to realize that there are many sensible/reasonable people here :)

More in that other post adressed to you.

Godis: Emily did ignore Peter’s bait for while, but there are limits. Peter jumped in, in many places Emily left a comment, to bait her.

Emily’s integrity, honor or self-esteem are irrelevant to her behaviors here, and she has recently come back. And I have not made the claim that she has high self-esteem or that she has pride. None of her comments indicate that she is trying to use her membership in a ‘superior “race”’ to derive a sense of self-worth.

It is not in my special world that lower self-esteem is better sometimes. The psychological literature review I cited documents many examples.

Your high score on reading tests means nothing if you can’t learn to avoid making baseless inferences and can’t make an effort to read scientific literature if it violates your “common sense.” And since America has a massive underclass and the government tries to put everyone through school and college, a high score on reading tests means little. Among dullards, a mediocre individual will obtain a high score.

Peter: I am getting tired of wasting my time over you. Whereas I would prefer to ignore your comments – and for some time I have ignored parts of your comments unrelated to your troublesome behaviors, poor understanding, mischaracterization of my arguments and assigning miscellaneous motives to me that I don’t harbor – you apparently have no intentions of stopping. So I am going to waste some more time replying to a couple of your comments that have bothered me, and in the process make it clear that your comments are unwanted here and that you need to stop commenting. This website is private property. You need to leave for good, not just a week or two.

You do not need to refresh my memory about Emily. You have stooped to much lower levels than Emily. Nasty comparisons (such as used by Emily at her most frustrated) are not the standard by which the lowliness of an argument is judged. One could use good language and fill one’s arguments with digressions, non sequiturs, ad hominem, etc. and make the argument extremely foul, which is precisely what you have done. You have the gall to state that all you did was post a picture of you smiling and this made Emily state that your skin reminds her of the color of feces. This is blatant falsehood. You had an extensive history of baiting Emily with irrelevancies, provocative items and other bad behaviors before she broke down. Things were adding up and finally it didn’t take much for her to go over the edge.

Emily has not written much that a reasonable person would consider homophobic, especially after giving her the benefit of the doubt for English not being her native language. And just about all of her “racist” commentary technically does not qualify as racism because it reflects no prejudice but facts stated in a blunt or unpleasant and sometimes nasty manner.

Part of why you need to stop commenting here is you bring back the same issue even though it has been resolved as far as the reasonable reader goes. Again, you accuse Emily of having low self-esteem. I have addressed the literature on self-esteem on numerous occasions. The literature makes it very clear that more prejudiced views or a lower opinion of others tends to go with higher self-esteem. In the case of Emily this does not mean that she has high self-esteem because her allegedly “racist” statements are technically not based on prejudice. The reasonable stance is that Emily’s self-esteem is not easily inferable from her statements, and the odds are greater that it is normal-to-above average than normal-to-below average. I clearly told that you are free to believe what you want about self-esteem and prejudiced beliefs, but you need to stop arguing against my empirically documented statement on the issue unless you can cite comparable evidence against it.

Another reason why you need to stop commenting here is that your level of argumentation is too poor compared to what this site is about. You stated that a reason you posted your pictures was to educate Emily about Indians and hooked noses/robust features. Emily never said that all Indians have hooked noses and you know very well that they are much more likely to have hooked noses than northern Europeans. You could post 10,000 pictures of Indians with straight noses and it would do nothing to refute the frequency difference between populations. I don’t want to entertain such poor arguments. And you don’t seem to understand what robusticity is about. You have posted your pictures from many angles except the front. You know why: your nose is far from fine. And look at your protruding mouth in side view, mainly because of the more ancestral/robust skeletal structure in the region. Parts of your face are not gracile. And parts of your face, such as the less developed chin, are not exactly an example of a finer feature but the weaker chin is partly a more ancestral condition that tends to go with a more protruding mouth (you have to consider your ancestry).

Regarding whether skin color matters, Emily comparing your skin to feces had nothing to do with whether skin color matters. Everyone with normal eyesight and normal vision can tell how your skin color compares to the color of feces, but why would anyone state this? A person with skin color outside of fecal color variation may state this if you have been angering or frustrating her, which is precisely what you were doing to Emily, to get back at you. So her comparison had nothing to do with whether skin color matters.

I have documented many examples of your creating trouble at this site, some in this comment also. But you call it ad hominem! This again shows that you have no intentions of behaving.

Regarding the extent of Emily’s responsibility for her behaviors, I am not saying she is not responsible at all. But your behavior is not that of walking in public while dressed flamboyantly, but of an obvious homosexual going around in public, loudly proclaiming all the homo-fun the breeders are missing out on, and offering men passing by his sexual services for a taste of homo-heaven. You provoked Emily to rage.

Again, your comments are not welcome here.

Regarding whether skin color matters, Emily comparing your skin to feces had nothing to do with whether skin color matters. Everyone with normal eyesight and normal vision can tell how your skin color compares to the color of feces, but why would anyone state this? A person with skin color outside of fecal variation may state this if you have been angering or frustrating her

You are sick Erik, I can't believe you are actually having to explain Emily's filthy language instead of condoning it.

    A person with skin color outside of fecal variation may state this

Erik, these are your own words, can you go descend any more lower than that? I am sure you could say this anonymously on the internet but would you ever say anything like this in real life.

Peter, your skin is probably more healthier and radiant than these people. At least you have the guts to post your pictures instead of staying anonymous like they have done.

And I have to say your jaw line is more feminine than the models he has on the attractive womens page. It's practically non existent.

Voice of Reason: I am not saying anything anonymously here. I am using my real name. And, what is lowly about my statement? Peter is making skin color an issue when it isn’t. Explaining Emily’s behavior is not the same as condoning it. I asked her not to write those things here, for the sake of the Gods. People have left negative comments about European skin at this site, comparing the pink varieties to pig skin. I don’t see you or others like you complaining about it, and I have not expressed disapproval of this analogy or asked this person to not say it again. But I asked Emily to refrain. So you should be pleased with my behavior. Personally I don’t see either analogy as racist, but unlike the pig skin analogy, repeating the feces analogy will result in trashed discussions, and hence I had to ask Emily to stop.

Erik, likening someone's skin to feces is much more insulting than likening it to the complexion of a pig. Remember that movie "Babe"? That pig was pretty cute! As far as Peter's comments go he did indeed provoke Emily but at least he has a sense of humor about all this. This site essentially stands in front of a mirror chanting "Mirror mirror on the wall who's the fairest of them all" and everyone , especially you and Emily, take it so seriously.

re the double standard regarding racism: I don't approve of it but I'll never understand why adults of any race are so sensitive about this that they can't slough off a few insults. No race is perfect, be Indians or Nordics.

It's remarkable that when I lose my temper just once people will jump on it instantly. When severely provoked for a long time, anyone can snap and write something not so wise, in anger. That's only natural, even if undesired.

Someone bullied me here for months without anyone saying A THING. NADA..NIENTE...RIEN..INGENTING. People like the ones whining now said absolutely nothing when I was bullied by this person. This was apparently OK. So can anyone say "hypocrisy"? If you apply different standards do different people just because you might agree with one and not with another you lose credibility and your complaint looks hypocritical..

Now, I don't find the skin colour of Indians particularly attractive. I don't think it is flattering to the looks, generally speaking, and neither do many Indians, since skin bleaching continues to be a popular way of enhancing one's beauty in India and in Asia in general, and fair skin is very much desired.

The word I used was uncalled for, not nice at all, and of course hurtful. For that I am sorry. To those who are Indians and who have done nothing to deserve the word I used I am sorry.

I am sure there are many good and kind Indians out there, and even though one sometimes says things here that are negative, since we do talk about physical appearance here, this is something one has to take into context, never forgetting what this site deals with..physical appearance and beauty.

If a site discusses inner matters, race, skin colour, eye colour, hair etc. don't matter at all, of course. Here - on this site - the topic is NOT inner matters, nor politics. It deals with beauty, femininity and LOOKS. Some people here tend to forget this (sometimes conveniently).

Voice of Reason,
Thank you for your nice words...although i wouldnt go as far as saying my jaws are "practically non existant"!

just noting
thanks!
I tried to include "my kind" of humor in my posts...im glad you noticed it :)

Emily,
Thank you for apologising.

Guys, I really can't believe what I'm reading here. I only got through the first 15 or so posts. Listen, there is a lot of variation within humanity, and a great deal of overlap, even between men and women. There are no features that are strictly masculine or strictly feminine, unless you're talking about the sexual organs, or secondary sexual features (i.e. breasts, etc). I don't understand what all the fuss is about, many of these women are very beautiful with the features they possess. Can't we just agree that different people will have different ideals of beauty? And how can one get a clear picture of the beauty of any of these women by looking at these still photographs, that do nothing to show their personality traits, or any endearing features? As they have been portrayed, they are nothing more than sacks of meat, no wonder you can't see any of their attractiveness! I don't mean to rant though, just my thoughts.

Ali

Hi, I've read this whole page and I just have to say I agree with everything Brazilian and Emily has said.
They tell the truth and if all of you people would go out travelling you would notice how right they are.
Erik, you have some good points and conclusions unlike 90% of the other people posting here.
And I'm really sorry that nobody said anything when people bullied you. It should never be acceptable.
Btw about why he "hated" the jews; Hitler was mad because the jews in Germany where hard working and talented, so he blamed them for "taking all the jobs" and when the country got into a financial crisis he saw his chance to take over the power. He was increadably ignorant, cold-hearted and hungry for power.

Henrik, maybe it's just your personal taste? Btw since you've grown up in Sweden you're so used to seeing average beautful, so you don't think much it but if you had lived in another part of the world for a few years, you would definatly notice the differance.
I'm not saying all nordic people are as beautiful as angels because there are ugly people in the north as well but if your'e not EXTREAMLY into black or asian women/men or slavic feautures, the north is the best place to see beauty.
And you can't be called "Björnsen" or "Bjornsen" as a swedish person so I think you're lying about being swedish just to tell "the truth". If that in fact is you name, you're not completly swedish.

I'm swedish and I've bin all over the world and seen many beautiful people but also see how "ugly" most people of other countries are comparing them to the people i see every day in Sweden. It's always amusing when I come home, how I suddenly see the beauty all around me.
I'm a girl but of course I can be amazed over the beauty of other girls and women(boys and men too for that matter) anyway.

Take care everyone

I meant the "I'm sorry that nobody said anything when you got bin bullied etc." to Emily, while it appears in my post I meant it to Erik. :)

Oh, this just does it.

There's alot of idiots and assorted scum who comment on this site, and while there have been some outright worse ones than Emily, there hasn't been a single one as unbelievably voracious, persistent, and thick-headed as Emily.

I'll say it flat out- Emily is a piece of shit. She's a misanthrope. She's a sort of nihilist with her endless disparagement of non-nordics, even non-nordic whites. To have such extreme views on human nature says very little positive in the way of one's feelings of humanity.

She's essentially a nordic fetishist. She thinks nordics, well, atleast women, have some kind of incomparable beauty that not a single other group on the planet can match. East asians? Why, asian women are androgynous and boyish, they look like undeveloped fetal dwarves, kind of like downs syndrome sufferers too. Slavics? Hooked noses abound, huge mouths, huge teeth (kind of an anomaly when caucasoid peoples, as a whole, have the smallest teeth out of any the planet) and look manly as hell. Romanians? They've got all that nasty indian blood in them that gives them 3 mile long noses. Oh, and nothing can compare to northern european skin color either. Obviously, humans evolved in a way where men would despise 95%+ of the skin color variation in our species.

And don't get me started on that nordic hair! Man, fuck how most whites don't have light eyes or blonde hair- non-blode hair and non-light eyes, the vast majority of the time, are felt as innately masculine.

This is just a quick summation of the disgusting little turd Emily is, though. She's also espoused some blatant white nationalist lines of reasoning, and how nordics need to protect their gene pool from all those hideous non-nordics.

You'll tell various generic trolls with poor spelling and crude insults how you want them to leave, BUT YOU HAVE NEVER SAID THIS TO EMILY. You have BARELY criticized her. And yes, I really DO think you have other motives.

I've heard around how some moronic racist friend of your's spilled some info on your true beliefs. You're a hereditarian. You're a racialist. You follow inane bullshit like Rushton's work. You honest to god think "Zionist agents" are following you around. YOU'RE A CONSPIRACY THEORIST. You're a 9/11 truther for fuck's sake! And you also run the pathetic anti-gay site "homosex.info" or whatever the URL is.

I don't think you're as extreme as Emily, no, but holy hell, all this just manages to line up. You can't hide this trash forever.

I don't know if you mean me or Eric, you complain about him not critizising Emily and critizise him and I got this send to my e-mail as a response to my comment.. so it's confusing. But I'm going to respond just in case;

I never said anything about blonde people, "nordic people being superiour" or anything. I just said I PERSONALLY think swedish people are the hottest people. Is that a crime?
So if I like my people I'm a racist and thick-headed?

I like beauty(men and women) from all around the world, not only nordic people.

I don't like for example russians though. It's partly political opinions but mostly becuase I think russians are EXTREAMLY overrated when it comes to beauty.

Tell me, where are you from?
Because this has nothing to do with discriminating black or dark people, it has to do with beauty.
Drop your political opinions on "racial" questions and THEN look at people from all around the world and you will see what beauty really is.

I don't know if you mean me or Eric, you complain about him not critizising Emily and critizise him and I got this send to my e-mail as a response to my comment.. so it's confusing. But I'm going to respond just in case;

I never said anything about blonde people, "nordic people being superiour" or anything. I just said I PERSONALLY think swedish people are the hottest people. Is that a crime?
So if I like my people I'm a racist and thick-headed?

I like beauty(men and women) from all around the world, not only nordic people.

I don't like for example russians though. It's partly political opinions but mostly becuase I think russians are EXTREAMLY overrated when it comes to beauty.

Tell me, where are you from?
Because this has nothing to do with discriminating black or dark people, it has to do with beauty.
Drop your political opinions on "racial" questions and THEN look at people from all around the world and you will see what beauty really is.

Sorry for double-posting

One last thing- at times, Erik hasn't done well to hide his more corrosive beliefs:

http://www.femininebeauty.info/ape-to-human

"It is not just the Australian aborigines, but here in the U.S., all attempts to educate the West African stock on par with whites and make them comparably intellectually and economically productive have failed."

"The dark Africans are hardly better. The Afrikaners build them a First World society, they demand control, destroy it and allow the international bankers to loot the wealth created by the Afrikaners, but only the Afrikaners are blamed. If the dark Africans have flourished and greatly expanded their numbers, what has made this possible? What if the white man were to leave Africa and all aid to Africa were stopped? Even with the influence of the parasitic international bankers removed, the dark Africans are sustaining a population much larger than what they can maintain on their own."

I just want to say violetcorpus, you are really speaking truth right now!

Erik's silence on Emily is really telling, it seems that he is silently espousing her ideals and her goals of a 'Super-race'(whatever that means!). I am truly disappointed in Erik because he, like you said, took time to condemn "trolls" (really people who just disagreed with him) for their disruptive behavior, and has said nothing to Emily. She is the one who say Asians look like they have down's syndrome, she is the one who said Beyonce looks like a gorilla in a dress, she is the one who has attacked east asians (who I see in everyday life, and indeed, they are quite attractive). I think that is so wrong of him.

I want to note, I am not the Emily from the Sweden (the bigoted, racists, white nationalist one). I am actually kind of the polar opposite of her. I am black with a substantial amount of caucasian mixture in me, and I find beauty in all populations. Her characterizations of Asians, Africans and African Americans, and the like are really off because I have been to many areas of my country (United States) and have seen the exact OPPOSITE of what she is saying. Granted, Swedish women are attractive (I don't find the men to be that attractive) but to me, to say that they are the most beautiful in the world is a bit crazy. Anyway, I am rambling a bit...

Message to Emily: you bring shame to the name 'Emily.'

Message to Erik: Man-up and talk about what you really believe. Stop hiding behind Emily and come out and be a man, if you even have the balls enough to do so. We know that you espouse what Emily spews, so just come out and say it and stop hiding in the shadows.

Message to all who are going to say that 'I am just Jealous': I believe that swedish women, caucasian women are very beautiful. There is no doubt in my mind. But this discussion, has become less about their beauty and more about putting others down. This discussion has gone from a discussion of beauty to Emily's mantra of hatred! It is disgusting, ridiculous and terribly racist. I am not throwing that term around, I am just speaking the truth.

Non-whites writing here really are comical. You think you can shut people up everywhere, don't you? Well, if my opinions on beauty are racist all I can say is that nature itself is racist, since it hardly made us equal in the beauty department.

This site is about femininity, and it is also very much geared towards a western/European audience - which Erik has explained - so if you want to see other races represented in spite of their not being on par with whites on femininity, maybe it is best to find sites geared towards those races.

Why you are still here reading this site after all this time is beyond me, since all you can do is complain about it. Doesn't seem very fruitful or intelligent to me.

Erik is under no obligation to show photos of women he finds to be lacking in femininity in comparison to other types of women, and accusing him of everything under the sun only makes you seem petty and envious - which of course you are.

Regarding Beyonce looking like a gorilla, I said that in the context of your president saying "A pig in lipstick is still a pig", which I find to be just as racist as any other similar remark, but of course blacks couldn't care less about that.

Beyonce looked ridiculous and totally out of place in the performance at the Oscars, and her thighs looked like they could smash concrete.

One can only hope that poor Hugh didn't get a permanent backache after his bizarre dance number with her.

In contrast, Hugh and Nicole..

Violet Corpus, YOU spew the hate you so unabashedly accuse Emily of doing, yet with foul language and ad hominem attacks on her character, though she has never done this to anyone personally, or otherwise. Name-calling and the foul language you employ will never give you the credibility that she has. The reason her comments inflame everybody is because she is WHITE and promotes the looks of whites. If she were Black, Asian, Latin, Indian, etc. no one would fault her. This is a double standard and it shows lack of tolerance, equality and fairness that everyone expects and demands. I'm white and will allow NO ONE, ever, to tell me that stating not only pride, but preference for other whites is wrong, or hateful. It is neither. You are entitled to your opinions and you state them without hesitation. Well I'm entitled to mine as well. So is Erik and Emily. There are a lot of people who prefer the looks of Northern European women and there is nothing, NOT A THING, wrong with that. If you are so disillusioned with the content of this site, why continue visiting it? You're not disuading anyone from their views. Why bother? Go somewhere else.

"Emily", (by the way, could you have at least used a middle initial or something), you don't have the first idea of what racism is if Emily's (the real Emily) opinions sound racist to you. Read through this site and you'll notice that she's said that in regards to LOOKS and BEAUTY she believes strongly that Nordic looks are best, and has stated why this is. She's on point too. Why else would so many others around the world emulate these looks?

Does she need me to back her up? No, I don't believe so. But I take it personal when I see someone who is white be so endlessly hassled for expressing pride in herself and others like her. I share her views on a great many topics. I have little tolerance for those who wish to infringe on MY rights to express my opinions, or who wishes to shut down anyone who wishes to share theirs.

"Violet Corpus, YOU spew the hate you so unabashedly accuse Emily of doing, yet with foul language and ad hominem attacks on her character, though she has never done this to anyone personally, or otherwise. Name-calling and the foul language you employ will never give you the credibility that she has. The reason her comments inflame everybody is because she is WHITE and promotes the looks of whites. If she were Black, Asian, Latin, Indian, etc. no one would fault her. This is a double standard and it shows lack of tolerance, equality and fairness that everyone expects and demands. I'm white and will allow NO ONE, ever, to tell me that stating not only pride, but preference for other whites is wrong, or hateful. It is neither. You are entitled to your opinions and you state them without hesitation. Well I'm entitled to mine as well. So is Erik and Emily. There are a lot of people who prefer the looks of Northern European women and there is nothing, NOT A THING, wrong with that. If you are so disillusioned with the content of this site, why continue visiting it? You're not disuading anyone from their views. Why bother? Go somewhere else.

"Emily", (by the way, could you have at least used a middle initial or something), you don't have the first idea of what racism is if Emily's (the real Emily) opinions sound racist to you. Read through this site and you'll notice that she's said that in regards to LOOKS and BEAUTY she believes strongly that Nordic looks are best, and has stated why this is. She's on point too. Why else would so many others around the world emulate these looks?

Does she need me to back her up? No, I don't believe so. But I take it personal when I see someone who is white be so endlessly hassled for expressing pride in herself and others like her. I share her views on a great many topics. I have little tolerance for those who wish to infringe on MY rights to express my opinions, or who wishes to shut down anyone who wishes to share theirs."

Barberella,

This is one of the best and most well-written comments I have ever seen here. I am impressed. You say it so much better than I could since it is your first language. I think it is awful and revolting that white people are being bullied and intimidated from speaking their mind. It has to stop. This IS slowly turning into harassment and racism against whites, the very thing they accuse whites of, in other words. As for hatred, that is the pot calling the kettle black. I have never seen so much hatred than the one coming from non-whites attacking me because I am white and prefer my own race in terms of looks. I think whites should take note of this. We shouldn't tolerate being bullied and intimidated.

So I came back to this site today. I find it quite informative to alot of aspects of physical anthropology. It's a great resource.

So, I checked the recent comments feature for the first time. This site seems to get comments every day.

It looks like almost every single one of them is in regards to Emily's trolling. She posts here almost every day. I'll just be responding to Barbarella:

"Violet Corpus, YOU spew the hate you so unabashedly accuse Emily of doing, yet with foul language and ad hominem attacks on her character,"

Yeah, I know I do. And I think it's justified. Emily's behavior and views go beyond the point of accpetable debate. As I, and others, have said before, there's nothing wrong with arguing about human beauty and what constitutes objective beauty. What truly matters is how much of a particular range of ethnic traits falls outside of objective standards of beauty.

I'll just repeat myself once without delineating the specifics- Emily is a nordic fetishist. She thinks almost anything outside of nordic ideals is ugly, masculine, hard, whatever. She doesn't go about this in an academic fashion, either. She ENDLESSLY trashes on other ethnic groups in extreme manners and ignores almost ANYTHING contrary to her bullshit. Someone THIS extreme deserves derision. Do you expect me to just sit back and act calm and collected about her nordic fetishism?

" though she has never done this to anyone personally, or otherwise."

Total BS. She's attacked BILLIONS of people worldwide with her commentary. That's far, far worse than a personal attack. She's a misanthrope.

"Name-calling and the foul language you employ will never give you the credibility that she has."

What if the name calling also has credibility to go along with it? Emily doesn't post scientific studies. Or anthropological studies. Or proper interpretations of human history. She'll just spam pictures of nordic girls SHE finds attractive, and, um, that's pretty much it. Oh, and the complete opposite of what I've delineated. She even ignores evidence on THIS SITE that contradicts her- IE, a study of physical preferences in korean-americans wherein their ideals were quite far off from the "white american average", the impermeability of physical traits below the neck (http://femininebeauty.info/improving-looks) etc.

"The reason her comments inflame everybody is because she is WHITE and promotes the looks of whites. If she were Black, Asian, Latin, Indian, etc. no one would fault her."

First off, she promotes the looks of NORDIC WHITES, not NON-NORDICS. She's particularly railed on slavics and romanians. I agree people would fault her significantly less if she were another race- I'm aware of this double standard- but does it make it right? NO. And are you to say NOBODY would oppose this? I'm sure there's plenty of people out there who'd dislike a little misanthropic shit like her who trashes on the looks of anyone outside of her own tiny little subrace. (nordics, particularly swedes)

"This is a double standard and it shows lack of tolerance, equality and fairness that everyone expects and demands."

Emily doesn't seem to respect that in the least.

"I'm white and will allow NO ONE, ever, to tell me that stating not only pride, but preference for other whites is wrong, or hateful. It is neither. You are entitled to your opinions and you state them without hesitation. Well I'm entitled to mine as well."

That's good to hear.

"So is Erik and Emily. There are a lot of people who prefer the looks of Northern European women and there is nothing, NOT A THING, wrong with that."

There's something wrong when you endlessly push off this preference as an almost 100% innate, universal attraction with almost nothing to back it up, and take such a nihilistic outlook on it.

"If you are so disillusioned with the content of this site, why continue visiting it? You're not disuading anyone from their views. Why bother? Go somewhere else."

This is a debate site, and Erik isn't as extreme as Emily. I haven't been disuaded from my views either. Since Emily is so desperate, thick, and biased, maybe she should leave.

Wait, she won't, unless she's banned. Which probably won't happen anytime soon.

""Emily", (by the way, could you have at least used a middle initial or something), you don't have the first idea of what racism is if Emily's (the real Emily) opinions sound racist to you."

Calling virtually all non-nordic women ugly is pretty racist to me. Elitist, too.

" Read through this site and you'll notice that she's said that in regards to LOOKS and BEAUTY she believes strongly that Nordic looks are best, and has stated why this is."

Yes, she believes, and she likes to reinforce this insane standard on EVERYONE.

"She's on point too. Why else would so many others around the world emulate these looks?"

As I and others have said before, this acts as if nordics don't have their own extreme ethnic traits. And to quote Erik: http://femininebeauty.info/ethnic-comparisons/beauty-elements

"It would be remarkable if the global impact of Western culture and the better quality of life in Western societies had nothing to do with many non-Europeans finding co-ethnics with faces somewhat shifted toward European norms as better looking, but it would be no less remarkable if this factor entirely accounted for this phenomenon. Read more on aesthetic preferences related to the ancestral-to-derived discriminant."

Those are in the words of Erik. I am in agreement with Erik's first statement, but quite different, in that it acts as if whites don't have their own ethnic traits- they just haven't manifested themselves as prominently, and other things. Emily is of the second. They're both equally extreme positions.

"Does she need me to back her up? No, I don't believe so. But I take it personal when I see someone who is white be so endlessly hassled for expressing pride in herself and others like her."

Pride doesn't entail this kind of venom.

This'll probably be my last comment, because I just noticed Emily sucking up to Barbarella.

"I think it is awful and revolting that white people are being bullied and intimidated from speaking their mind. It has to stop."

There's a fine line between speaking your mind and trashing so profoundly on the looks of virtually all non-nordics, enforcing YOUR opinions on beauty on EVERYONE ELSE as an innate thing. And no, you do NOT speak for whites. You speak almost ONLY FOR NORDICS. You've said some truly repugnant things about slavs and romanians, close to the level of the things you've said against asians. You're not being bullied and intimated for speaking your mind, you're doing it because you're being a baseless, supremacist asshole.

"This IS slowly turning into harassment and racism against whites, the very thing they accuse whites of, in other words."

Oh my god. This can't be serious.

.........Yes Emily. There has been racism against whites here. People are less likely to speak out against it due to double standards. I know of it myself. Black racists who'll call whites "thin-lipped" or "flat-assed" or say they "age like shit" or say they're "hairy". That kind of racism is garbage too, and I have spoken out against it. (IE, aging has little to do with skin color, a sizable portion of the body hair differences is due to testosterone, it can also be a component of masculine beauty etc.)

But.... holy hell, look at you. You've been on this site for MONTHS, CONSTANTLY pushing YOUR extreme nordic fetishistic ideals of human beauty on EVERYONE ELSE and saying unbelievably dehumanizing, profoundly baseless things about non-nordics. Jesus christ how can YOU cry about this? On this page alone, there certainly have been racist comments against whites, and that's not good, but they utterly PALE compared to your comments and the sheer volume.

Hilarious how you'd even use the term "racism". What the fuck do you think you've been doing all this time?

"As for hatred, that is the pot calling the kettle black. I have never seen so much hatred than the one coming from non-whites attacking me because I am white and prefer my own race in terms of looks."

No. No. No. Stop for a minute there, you sickeningly hypocritical little fuck. They're attacking you because YOU ATTACK THEM. YOU PUSH YOUR STANDARDS OF BEAUTY DOWN EVERYONE'S THROAT, AND TRASH THEIR RACE- EVEN MEMBERS OF YOUR OWN RACE- TO HELL. It's so blatantly obvious you do NOT speak for whites as a whole. I mean jesus, do I need to paste what you've said about Slavs and Romanians again? I'm SO SICK of repeating myself.

"I think whites should take note of this. We shouldn't tolerate being bullied and intimidated."

No Emily. I think everyone, regardless of race, should take note of what you're doing here. You're playing the victim in spite of how awful you've acted here. You're truly amazing. The fact that you'd fall back on this kind of position speaks untold volumes about what kind of person you are.

This may sound corny, but it's unbelievably fitting- you're a shining example of how outer beauty doesn't have the least to do with inner beauty. Rot in hell.

Violet Corpus, thinly disguised as "visitor", hmm...where to begin? First of all, a (pseudo)intellectual like yourself MUST know the true meaning of fetishism, correct? A person with a fetish needs a certain object, ect. to become aroused and then brought to climax. One who admires the looks and culture of her own ethnic background can hardly be called a "fetishist", UNLESS, Emily has been caught lurking around the bushes of her neighbors' house, becoming stimulated by their Nordicism, without any other stimuli, including direct physical stimulation of a sexual nature. Pretty far-fetched, I know, so let's move on since we can actually rule out "Nordic Fetishism", it was pretty weak to begn with so thank God we can drop it!!

Yes, I see it is a debate site, I've also seen you call Erik's own values into question: Did you not link a quote by him in regards to the way that African Americans have failed to acclimate as an example of his own "misanthropy"? You're not going to change his views, no matter how much you nag, moan and bitch! You think Erik needs to block Emily, but Emily has "debated" her own views for quite some time, and since this is a debate site, why should she be asked to leave? She's used foul language maybe once or twice, and in times aside from that it has been direct quotes of other "debators", like yourself.

I'd say misanthrope is also a little extreme, kind of like the whole "fetishism". I guess extreme words are the only way that someone like yourself can get any kind of point across, but lucky for you I'm somewhat intelligent myself so I'm seeing where this is going...

Misanthrope: a hater of humankind. The official definition from Dictionary.com, how is one who denies the looks of other races as persoanally appealing a "hater of humankind"? If this were a website about the attributes of intellect, morality or spiritual fitness and Emily STILL said that Swedes were better for all of those reasons than a claim like that may be validated, but this site is about LOOKS. Looks vs. intellect, personality and morality are things that this site does not concern itself with.

So let's get this straight Violent Corpus, you are justified in spewing hate? I mean, I just read you are, by your own description. Swearing and name calling are acceptable debating practices, but Emily's opinions aren't? You refuse to hold yourself up to the standards that she must? Do you like the looks of Nordics? No, you don't. There's another thread that clearly and accurately describes your utter disgust with them, but that's OK, right? Time to face the facts, little girl, Emily will still be here long after you're gone. And her use of photos as a mode of employing her points is something that many here do. Have you bothered to read the "anti-Nordic" comments made by others here, as well as the pictures that those debators used? Erik had once defended Emily by saying that people could say all the negative things they wanted about Nordics and not expect to get banned, so why should he have to ban her? He shouldn't. He banned Peter, because Peter was an instigator who constantly tried to start contoversy by digressing to topics that were purposely infalmmatory and only intended to inflame Erik and Emily, and not for the purpose of valuable discussion, but for the purpose of spamming the website as some sort of amusement to himself.

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