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The transsexual parade otherwise known as the Victoria’s Secret lingerie show: part 6 - Adriana Lima

Previous parts: 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.  This entry addresses Adriana Lima.

I had earlier largely avoided addressing Adriana Lima because of an ancestry confound, but there is no escaping addressing a big one like her.  Adriana obviously does not look like a male-to-female transsexual, but as specified earlier, all Victoria’s Secret models do not have to look like transsexuals in order for the title to be justified.

People familiar with Adriana Lima but not having carefully examined her looks will recall a woman with a large [fake] bust, wide hips, thick lips and non-angular features, which altogether do not suggest masculinization, and those knowledgeable about the gay domination of the fashion business may wonder how an apparently feminine woman made it big as a fashion model.  Therefore, this entry will address how feminine Adriana Lima is, starting from her early pictures.

Take a look at the following picture of Adriana as a teenager and see if you can sense some masculinization, specifically boyishness, notwithstanding her non-angular facial features and thick lips.

Adriana Lima

The following pictures may help one sense the masculinization if the previous picture is not helpful.

Adriana Lima

Readers who still cannot see the masculinization in Adriana Lima’s face should refer to the following pictures of a teenage girl, Marketa from, and then look carefully at the pictures above.

Marketa from

Marketa from

Marketa’s pictures in this entry and those of a teenage Adriana are unlikely to be confounded by a sharp age difference in favor of Marketa since reports that all its models are at least 18.

A young Adriana Lima didn’t just have a masculinized face; her physique was slender and boyish, too.

Adriana Lima

Adriana Lima

Adriana Lima

Marketa, although flatter-chested than Adriana, has a face, body proportions and backside that don’t give her a boyish look; Marketa looks like a girl.

Marketa from

Marketa from

Therefore, Adriana is certainly not an anomaly in terms of a supposedly feminine girl having made it big as a fashion model; minus her boyishness in teenagehood, there would have been no need to write this entry.  After having lost her boyishness, Adriana has only be suitable for limited work such as lingerie modeling, but her high status has allowed her to model in other settings.  A masculinized teenage girl is not normally going to grow into a feminine adult woman, and Adriana is no exception.

See the following two pictures where she is compared to Veronika Zemanova, also with breast implants, and note the striking difference with respect to approximating an hourglass figure, obviously because Veronika Zemanova is feminine.

Adriana Lima, Veronika Zemanova

Adriana Lima, Veronika Zemanova

Veronika Zemanova is so feminine that in a number of pictures her breasts look natural, and in clothing she would put to shame any Victoria’s Secret model.

Veronika Zemanova

On the other hand, whereas Adriana Lima has gained weight and become a woman, she has not acquired the femininity that should be required of high-profile lingerie models, even with breast implants.

Adriana Lima

Look at the following two pictures of a more mature Adriana Lima and see if you can sense the masculinization; the second picture should be an easy one.  Also look at this picture and see if her face looks somewhat masculinized, and note her hairy and manly-looking forearms.

Adriana Lima

Adriana Lima

It would help to compare Adriana Lima to an all-natural feminine woman that would be ideal for lingerie modeling, and I was thinking about an appropriate woman when it occurred to me that I should select the woman that I would if I were Madeline, and the answer was a no-brainer, namely Gigi from Domai, shown below.

Gigi from Domai

Gigi from Domai

Gigi from Domai

Gigi from Domai


i agree adriana has a somewhat boyish frame--but not as boytish as the other vs models. here is a candid of her with an ex-fiancee. i also posted a pic of her with her natural hair texture showing--proving she is atleast 1/3 to half black. often time they choose to lighten her skin in shoots, but that isn't a tan. maybe you should compare her to someone of mixed afro/meditterranean descent to see some masculinixation in her face., she is also part asian. i would suggest looking at some west induans, cape verdeans, etc. for that if you have prblems. but is it crazy to compare er to a northern european as she claims to be afro-carib, japanese, and portuguese...--- she is not "half" both her parents aoppear to be fair skinned blacks.


One of the challenges of this site for me has been to identify in specific terms why faces are/are not masculinized and where they rate on the masculine/feminine scale. As I tend to be more verbal and less visual in how I learn new things, it would help if you could be more specific about faces that are neither overtly feminine nor highly spelling things out (to slow learners like me!) more precisely. (Ex: square jaw, high cheekbones, low eyebrows, protruding forehead, etc.)

While I see that Adriana is not particularly feminine, I have trouble identifying why she is masculine in her looks, and would probably (if left to my own devices) categorize her as "average", taking into account her ethnicity.

As to her physique, interestingly, some of her younger photos do depict a curvy shape with a clearly deliniated waist, but I agree that her body type overall (in her more recent photos) is fairly masculine.

While I agree that an above average feminine physique is important in something like lingerie/swimsuit modeling, I would not exclude Adriana from that line of work based solely on her face, which appears to be merely average (to me) but I might find her not feminine enough for something like a beauty pageant, where the face is much more important and relevant.

As for Veronika, LORD HAVE MERCY! If that represented the standard on this site, you would have a much smaller "Attractive Women" section..thankfully for average women like me, women with her physique are few and far between!

actually, i do not find that woman (gigi) attractive in the least. i might even say she is on the unattractive side. very boring face and although she has a feminine body, i don't find her breasts appealing.

when i look at adriana's face, something about it does say "masculine" to me, but for some reason i cannot pinpoint exactly what it is. because you're an expert on all of this, might i ask what exactly it is about her face that makes it seem masculine?

nevertheless, i still consider adriana to be one of the prettiest well-known females out there, even if she does have slight masculinity to her.

and in response to the poster who pointed out that adriana is asian, i am almost sure she is not. i think a lot of that rumor comes from "damage control" when she made a quote that "brazilian women are beautiful because they are of mixed race, unlike the japanese who all look the same".

i think what she really meant to say was that if you are of entirely one ethnicity, you don't have very diverse/exotic looks and therefore you look very plain and similar to everyone else. many people took that quote the wrong way and thought she implied that japanese people all look the same, and so they included in some of her bios that she is of japanese heritage.

i don't think she is even sure herself exactly what ethnicity she is. i am of mixed race too and don't know exactly my entire ancestry.

basically erik--- i think you should start comparing her atleast to someone of mixed african descent--which would apply to most afro americans--who are typically of asiatic, eurpean AND african descent, countless darker hispanics, etc. why do u insit on comparing people who re obviously not white to white women?

kristin, if you've ever visited the "beauty pageants" part of this site, it's obvious that erik insists european women are the most feminine (which i find to be complete bullshit).

I have to agree with madeline: European women are not the most feminine. That almost sounds racist.

And Erik, I really wish you would find a source for your beauty "information" other than pornographic sites.

sorry about the double posts.

What weight? Adriana does not look fat in the least.

Kristin: Only the first woman that Adriana is compared to is a Northern European. Anyway, trying to come up with an ethnicity match in this case is an unnecessary headache because I have to figure out Adriana’s ethnic composition and find feminine women of a similar ethnic composition for starters. The problem is confounded by multiple deviations, some random, from the expected average of parental face shapes when the parents are indigenous to separate continents. You say that Adriana is a third-to-half sub-Saharan African, but judging by her face shape, this appears highly unlikely, and even if it is true, there are surely people having an ethnic composition similar to Adriana’s but ethnically different looking faces that are unambiguously indicative of substantial sub-Saharan African ancestry. I ignored Adriana in the “sexy fashion models?” section because I did not want to deal with an ancestry mess, but since she has to be addressed in the context of a Victoria’s Secret model and this entry is not about a comparison of attractiveness, I can address the masculinity-femininity of Adriana’s appearance by comparing her to women of other ancestries.

As far as Adriana’s skin color goes, I have seen candid and paparazzi pictures of her where she has light skin, i.e., the woman is naturally light-skinned. She can develop a dark tan, but then there are plenty of normally-pasty-white Europeans who can become brown given enough sun.

Sandy: With respect to masculine-feminine variation in face shape, I have spelt things out, in detail, on the “feminine vs. masculine” page; the problem for some people, though I don’t know about you, is the use of technical words/jargon on this page, which cannot be avoided if one is to maintain brevity. A more layperson-friendly approach would involve expanding this page into a multi-page section with a lot more diagrams accompanied by commentary and less jargon, but this requires a lot of work, is not necessary, and I have more pressing needs to attend to for some time to come. Anyway, the three main facial features contributing to the somewhat masculinized appearance of Adriana are her chin (large), forehead bone (brow region masculinized) and nose tip (too wide; minor contribution).

To illustrate, if one were to remove the forehead and chin cues from two of her pictures shown above, then even with an unmanipulated nose, she would start looking normal-to-feminine:

Adriana Lima

Adriana Lima

Basically, if you absorb the contents of the “feminine vs. masculine” page, it would take you a few seconds to assess in detail what makes someone masculine or feminine, and you will be able to perform the requisite manipulations mentally instead of having to cut out some details of the face using an image editor.

I agree that Adriana is appropriately described as “average” given her ethnic background, but my point is that the woman is not feminine enough for high-profile lingerie modeling.

Madeline: I agree that Gigi is unimpressive (except for the mammaries and hourglass shape); she looks like a mother. I posted her pictures to mess around with you. On the other hand, I have not argued that European women are the most feminine; the section that you refer to addresses, in part, the masculinity-femininity of physical appearance, which is not to be confused with actual masculinity-femininity, which in turn is something that would need to be assessed in terms of sex steroid profiles, steroid receptors, etc. The arguments in the “beauty pageants” section stand unless you or someone else can refute them.

phred: As far as the sources of the ‘beauty "information"’ go, they are peer-reviewed science and medicine journals, not pornographic sites. It has been necessary to source many pictures from adult-oriented sites but only some of these sources are pornographic sites.

To say that Adriana has gained weight does not mean that she has become “fat”; she has gained weight compared to her slender teenage self.

my pint eric--is that if you took in account her black and asian ancestry--you would see that her having full cheeks and lips is not a sign of feminity as much as ethnicity---and no--normal europeans do not get that tan--- only women of color get the jennifer lopez bronze. here is a pic of my friend--who is black, filipino, and white---and you can compare that to adriana---(although there are tons of lighter skinned blacks in america and s. america with this lineage---tons. its the girlkl all the way to the right---and her face is obviously more feminine than adriana's

I went over this site, and what is scientific or medical? "Action Girls"? "Domai"? ""?
Maybe you would like to rephrase your statement, because it contradicts the sources I've spotted so far.

phred: You have not seen any skull diagrams, tables, numerical data and citations from peer-reviewed journals on a number of pages within this site? I hope that you are aware that bearing false witness (Exodus 20:16, Deuteronomy 5:20, Luke 3:14) and lying (Proverbs 6:16-19) are sins.

Kristin: Of course, Adriana’s thick lips are not indicative of femininity when her whole-face appearance doesn’t look feminine. This is why I asked people to discern whether there is something masculine about her face notwithstanding her thick lips and non-angular features. Anyway, you are mistaken about Europeans not being able to become brown; many sure can. Here is a Northern European:

Sharon Clark

I have seen more extreme examples among Northern Europeans, and southern Europeans can become darker still.

at this point--i want you to note--the comparison between the girl i posted and adriana--doesn't it make it easier for viewers to notice adriana is masculine?

Kristin: Yes, your friend is a good choice when it comes to clarifying Adriana’s facial masculinization.

Kristin - how can you possibly comment on the skintone/ethnicity of Adriana's parents? Adriana has only ever met her father once, so you couldn't possibly know what he looks like. I have also never been able to come up with a picture of Adriana's mother. If you look at runway pictures of Adriana circa 1999, she has incredibly fair skin. Since she is from Brazil, she tans very easily. Her natural hair is very curly, but it is not like course African hair. She has a small percentage of her that is black, but definitely not as much as 1/3.

I do find this site very interesting and informative. As a straight woman, I agree completely with your analysis of what makes an attractive female body, but I cannot seem to find any of the faces you find attractive to be attractive. I think this is perhaps because I am attracted to masculine faces and therefore prefer women with masculine faces as well.

Most people say that Adriana lima is the most attractive out of the VS models. Interestingly, you point out that she is also the most feminine of them. I always think that Adriana is the least attractive of the VS models. I like Heidi and Alessandra. I also think Cindy Crawford has the prettiest face I have ever seen. I think that the reason I do not like Adriana may be because her face is too feminine or at least too babyfaced.

The thing is, VS models exist to sell lingerie to women, not men. It is very possible that fashion models and lingerie models are more successful in appealing to women when they look like men. It isnt just the gay men in the fashion industry. It is the consumer as well. As a straight woman, I can see that the porn stars you post are really sexy to hetero men, but none of them make me want to buy clothing. They make me jealous and catty. I see women like that in lingerie and I think "she is such a whore. I dont want anything to do with her". But I see women like Adriana or Alessandra and I like their sculpted lean physiques. No fat or shapliness to distract from the lingerie. They look like marble hangers. I do not care about their waist hip ratios. They can wear next to nothing without looking dirty or vulgar because their physiques are asexual and that makes me want to buy what is on them. Lingerie with class.

I think these women end up as sex symbols to men because most men are attracted to most women. They will jack off to anything with tits and a vagina. They see women in glossy photos in underwear and think hot before remembering that a good looking amateur porn star would actually be better to bang. Men have low standards when it comes to female beauty, but even then women like Adriana lima sell make up and lingerie- they sell to women. Models like Vida Guerra and Kelly Brook are the ones who appeal mainly to men.

Ghengis Kant: If you are a woman that prefers masculinized female faces, then your preferences are at odds with the majority of women. Most men and most women judge female attractiveness similarly; see point #5 under objective correlates of beauty here. Therefore, the use of masculinized lingerie models cannot be justified by pointing out that they are selling to women, not men.

The great majority of the nude models shown here are not porn stars, and in proper dress there would be nothing dirty, vulgar or classless about their looks. Whereas the use of feminine and attractive women for lingerie modeling may make you jealous or catty, a basic principle of advertising is, “buy our product, look like this or obtain this characteristic,” which in the case of lingerie modeling would be “buy our lingerie, look like this sexy woman, arouse your male partner,” i.e., it naturally follows that the selection of lingerie models be based upon the preferences of heterosexual men, which also happen to be what most women find appealing in the looks of women. In other words, the use of feminine and attractive lingerie models will surely not diminish sales of lingerie.

I have not said that Adriana Lima is the most feminine of Victoria’s Secret Models or even that she is feminine; she just happens to be more feminine-looking than the VS models addressed in parts 1-5 of this series.

Men in general tend to have low partner standards when it comes to casual sex, but not low aesthetic standards, i.e., desired looks in a partner. With posing tricks and fake appeal (e.g., breast implants), a number of VS models do end up on a list of appealing women as far as a number of heterosexual men are concerned, but then there is no high-profile mainstream outlet for feminine beauty appreciation. When the latter is established, we shall see how many masculinized VS models/equivalent end up in lifetime-exclusive heterosexual men’s list of top-desirable women.

i think kant touched on an important point. in hollywood, producers often find actresses who are pretty in non-threatening way--like cameron diaz, jennifer aniston, and nicole kidman, to attract female audiences.all of these women also show signs of masculinity. they inspire audience comradery vs. jealousy.

Kristin: Kant’s point that you have emphasized doesn’t apply to the specific advertising scenario considered here, as I have already explained. Besides, there is a trickle-down effect with respect to the looks of fashion models, given their high status. In other words, when there is a prominent mainstream outlet for feminine beauty appreciation, you will see more feminine women among top-ranked actresses.

What is wrong with this blog/bullshit..everything. seriously, she doesn't look anything like a man, and in fact in my eyes is the sexiest woman alive. she is all natural, not a fake thing in her body except fake eyelashes maybe once in awhile at a photo shoot. But if anything Gisele Bunchen (sp?) i believe was a man. or is still a man. she has a thick jaw line even greater than Jay Leno himself. I mean come on, why write such garbage about adriana. not everyone in the world is fat and has saggy tits. she was just blessed with good genes great tits and nice slim body.

i read this wrong and i'm sorry for complaining. haha.

It appears that someone has a preference for soft-core porn models rather than legitimate fashion models. The fashion industry doesn't base beauty on average or typical. They don't want their models all looking like the girl walking down the street. Fashion searches for different looks, something more exotic. The boyish body style is practically a requirement for runway fashion models. You HAVE to fit into a certain size, and the flatter chested then the better (unless your modeling lingerie in such a case a model is required to fill B or C cups).

Zemanova would not be offered a contract with Victoria's Secret because of her breast size. They are not looking for breasts that would do well in pornography regardless if they were real or not. Like I said in the paragraph above, professional lingerie models must have a modest breast size. Take also into mind that Zemanova has had her chin surgically altered when she was younger and her photos go through a hell of a lot more airbrushing than Lima's.

Oh, also, the "all natural girls" you display DO look boyish. Especially the last one...what was her name...Gigi? That is NOT a face you would see on a Gucci ad. Why? Because there is nothing special about it. She looks like a regular Jane from the street. No exotic eyes. Her nose is not attractive. Her brow is weak. And she has distinct age lines around her nose that does not look attractive either.

Then there's Marketa, whose face looks like the boy who played Neville Longbottom in Harry Potter...except with blues eyes and blond hair. In other words, she has a fat face, and if fat faces is what you consider being feminine then I think your mad.

Ella: Most nude models shown within this site are not porn models and if there were enough feminine fashion models around, there would be no need to resort to nude models, but then there would be no need for this site in the first place. Feminine beauty is not average or typical, and most girls walking down the street do not possess it. Feminine beauty is sufficiently uncommon to satisfy the need for a different look among fashion models, but the gays dominating the fashion industry would generally have none of it and their preferences are responsible for why a boyish body is needed for fashion modeling. Aside from the preferences of gay fashion designers, there is no need whatsoever for boyish looks among high-fashion models; see Table 2 here and read the rest of the page.

Of course, Zemanova would not be offered a VS contract even if she had never posed nude or gotten breast implants, and because her appearance is too feminine for the company. Victoria’s Secret uses plenty of lingerie models with large breast implants -- Adriana has implants, too -- and if you go through the attractive women section of this site, you will encounter numerous feminine women with small- to medium-sized breasts, but the latter will not be used because of their “excessive femininity” from the perspective of the company. Do you have a reliable citation that Veronika Zemanova has had her chin altered? Please don’t tell me that top-notch fashion models like Adriana Lima have their pictures less airbrushed by high profile fashion media compared to lowly models like Ms. Zemanova in low-profile publications.

None of the women contrasted with Adriana Lima above look boyish. Marketa was shown to illustrate what girlish looks are about; calling her boyish and fat-faced is beyond ridiculous. I don’t like Gigi’s face and would not put her in the attractive women section; I posted her pictures to mess around with Madeline. You have left a detailed comment regarding Gigi’s face even though the first part of this series has noted that the face is not of primary importance to lingerie modeling and should not be focused upon. Both Veronika and Gigi have physiques that are overall better suited to lingerie modeling than Adriana’s, even if you object to the size of their breasts.

Well, that's fine. I dont like your face either, erik. but at least i get paid for my looks, and you dont.

I agree that Adriana Lima can look masculine, along with most fashion models, but you weaken your argument when you compare her with very average looking Slavic girls who have ugly faces. Ex. Gigi from Domai has ugly deepset eyes, an oversize nose, and protruding teeth!!

Whatever agreement I had with you is killed when I see your ugly's sad that you write so well, then you refute yourself with these pics.

Dr. Azzarolo: Gigi was more along the lines of a joke. I was picking on "Madeline." I am not fond of her face, either. The issue is lingerie modeling, i.e., face is not that important. Many of the glamour models that I have shown in this series are not in the attractive women section because their faces/bodies are not that great.

Marketa certainly looks more girly than a teenage Adriana. Veronika Zemanova doesn't have a great face, but her body is made for lingerie modeling!!! Zemanova did not even need breast implants, and here you have Adriana not able to look feminine in spite of breast implants. Anyway, there are a bunch of other Victoria's Secret models that I need to address, and I will try to come up with better comparisons.

has one of the most womanly,beautiful faces ever. I don't care for the Victoria Secert bodies. But they all have gorgeous faces!

all you say about these beautiful women haveing masculine faces is a bunch of bullshit. By the way I am a straight guy.

Chris2 I have had enough of you repeating that you are a "straight guy." You need to stop and not post using multiple aliases. I don't think that you are going to understand this site. Instead of browsing this site, do something else.

Well this site imo is horribly inacuerate about these beautiful models.

Erik you jsut wish you could have Gisele,Adriana,Ana, and ll the Sports Illustrated swimsuit models as your gf/s!

Chris2/Adrianchris: You need to stop using multiple aliases. You have made your point...stop repeating it.

If straight women prefer above average femininity in women, why would gay men prefer masculinity in women? Even with actual trannies, I know most gay men are more fond of the more feminine-looking ones. Sounds like someone here is very prejudice and bigoted!

As nature is very diverse, human beauty manifests itself in many different ways.

...: Do you believe that homosexual men are men with the brains/preferences of women? Hint: compare the prevalence of gastrointestinal infections -- related to sexual practices that translate to the consumption of fecal material -- in homosexual men to that in heterosexual women.

Males approaching the average looks of masculinized female high-fashion models look like adolescent males/effeminate young adult men, which is not inconsistent with your statement that “most gay men are more fond of the more feminine-looking ones.” Of course, many homosexual men are interested in masculine adult men.

Why not take a poll? See what Hetero men, Homosexual Men, Straight Women find attractive for lingerie modeling... and see what may be surprising...

As an artist, I love all sorts of shapes of men and women.
In drawing, I see all shapes of women especially because the female body is great practice.

Marketa looks very child-like. I looked like that when I was 12.
(I'm just saying)

Maybe get a "high-fashion model" next to a "nude" model in person...

There are "pretty" boys, who many girls find attractive and then there are "rugged" men. Just as there are "boyish" girls who many men love and there are those full-figured women too.

There are many "porno" or "shirtless" models who are masculine. And there are many vs models who are not extremely well known that are feminine.

Also, I think it would be more apparent for people to see masculinity in a woman if she were compared to a man just like the diagrams showed.

Girls who are pear shaped are always going to look feminine, even without large breasts. (something just doesn't look right)
Girls who don't have large bottoms, are still "feminine" compared to an actual man. (especially if they have natural large breasts)

There are even tall girls who are full-figured.

And all the "goo goo" eyes from men that all these high fashion models get (Heidi..two kids and happily married? Giselle dates great men...)..I guess scientifically speaking, male traits are obviously sexy.

Besides, being attracted to someone for their inner beauty is key. Everyone gets old and wrinkly.

Ali: I have cited better stuff than mere polls, though not specifically in the context of lingerie modeling. One can nevertheless extrapolate from numerous studies about aesthetic preferences, and the selection of many Victoria’s Secret models would appear to be curious given the company’s profile.

Of course Marketa looks like a girl. In selecting her, I wished to contrast girlish looks with the more masculine look of a teenage Adriana Lima.

I have plenty of examples of high-fashion models contrasted with nude models within this site and have even posted some video comparisons recently (example). I can’t do much more at present.

I agree that there is variation among nude models and Victoria’s Secret models. However, the choice of nude models is limited by the number and type of women willing to pose nude, porn stars tend to be masculinized [because feminine women are less likely to do porn work] and some men interested in nude women are not exclusively heterosexual. You need to look at the large number of masculinized women that Victoria’s Secret Company is using and ask yourself why.

There is no need to illustrate the masculinity of some women by contrasting them with men, especially since the men will look much more masculine. Contrasting with normal or feminine women is sufficient.

Yes there are tall women with feminine physiques and it is true that inner beauty matters, but what is the point of bringing this up?

About 20% of men are not lifetime-exclusive heterosexuals. Therefore, there is no shortage of men potentially interested in masculinized women, and it does not follow that multiple male admirers of Heidi Klum and Gisele Bundchen suggests that the looks of these women are very desirable from the perspective of men in general. Heidi Klum’s first marriage was to a hairtylist, Ric Pipino, whose profession attracts a lot of homosexual men. The father of her first child, Flavio Briatore, has a history of romantic involvement with masculinized fashion models. Her current husband, Seal, was involved with another masculinized model before Heidi Klum. Similarly, Gisele’s former boyfriend, Leonardo DiCaprio, appears to dig masculinized women and last I heard she was dating a football player who had recently broken up with a masculinized female partner. So think about what kind of men these women are mostly attracting.

Eric, once again you have offered no real proof to support your delusions. You contend that these models are dating closet queers or men who have been attracted to or sexually interacted with other males in their youth. Once again, you have absolutely no proof of this. Your "proof" consists of the fact that Heidi Klum's former boyfriend is a hairstylist, which is too freaking simplistic and retarded to debate seriously. You also say that Leo Dicaprio and Tom Brady have both dated "masculinized" women which proves absolutely nothing other than that they may have a preference for these looks in women. When you come up with REAL proof that men who like these women are fags or have been faggish in their pasts then you have some proof. Right now you are letting your superiority complex and your deluded arrogance blind you.

What makes me a weirdo Eric? Is it my dislike of your nasty nude models?


SHe should try out for America's next Top Model!

You are clearly insane. Get over yourself.

I only meant that there should be a poll over lingerie models or women who look better in lingerie. Just to see what the general public REALLY prefers....For example, maybe seeing women with VS looks in the same lingerie as a feminine woman. I just think that seeing the two side by side gives a more true visual. I am not saying whether one is better than the other...just to see what "feminine" means to the general public. (out of curiousity)

I was just a little disturbed about I said, sincerely, I did look like her when I was twelve, and it disgusts me to see her so exposed.

I saw the videos...I thought it gave great speculation.

I am glad that you agree that there is variation among nude models and Victoria’s Secret models. Laetitia Casta was once a VS Model and I always admired her natural beauty...although she may have some masculine traits, I am able to overlook them.

Even though one would think that VS WOULD have very feminine, beautiful women as models, I am very glad that they don't. I do however think that more variation in the model industry would be fabulous. Crystal Renn for example is a very beautiful, full-figured woman. Twiggy back in the 60s?...she was a very thin olive-oyl looking girl but she's striking to look at.

Why do they have a large number of masculinized women?
I mean, there has to be a reason why people like VS Models otherwise, they wouldn't be so popular. If we were to look at the tags of bras at dillards, JC Penney or wherever, you'll find plenty of the more feminine looking women modeling them.

Maybe because people in general for whatever reasons are becoming more attracted to
Women get breast implants, nose jobs, buttocks done, remove ribs, yatta yatta but they also get chin implants, cheekbone implants, and others that would seem to be more of a masculine thing, right? So maybe we like the feminine stuff, yet we'd like to have stronger appearances in other places.

Its not only VS that like masculinized is also other popular lingerie stores like Fredericks.

My idea of comparing them to men was only a thought. When I watch runways shows, it is very obvious which ones are women and men, so you are right about that.

I was just saying that tall women can be feminine.
I wasn't trying to make a point, just my opinions and observations.

So I thought about what "kind of men these women" are mostly attracting and I think that all those men are HOT! lol.

I think that all shapes of women can be sexy.

Anyways, I think that you need to start a lingerie store with feminine women ...maybe you are on to something here.
I just know that female self-esteem is such a problem right now. I know women want to look taller, thinner, symmetrical, but! I also see a problem with feminine women too as they are on the opposite end of the female body spectrum. Women will only continue to get cosmetic surgery to try to achieve an hourglass figure. I think DOVE has got it right...

Danielle: Yes, I haven’t proven that these models are dating “closet queers,” but then I never made this assertion. Only a small minority of men who are not lifetime-exclusive heterosexuals are homosexual or bisexual, and I did not imply that these men are necessarily homosexual or bisexual.

Look at it this way. Rich men with reasonable fame have plenty of women to choose from, and are in a position to attract many women that most people consider to be very good looking (feminine beauties). So what would make some such men repeatedly date masculinized women? Obviously a preference for masculinization in women, and if these women are as masculine as Gisele and Heidi, then is it unreasonable to suspect that these men are either not lifetime-exclusive heterosexual or have narrowly escaped nonheterosexuality? I don’t think so. I do not have photographic/videographic evidence that any of these men are not lifetime-exclusive heterosexuals, but what reasonable person wouldn’t suspect it?

Regarding Heidi Klum, you just noted Ric Pipino but not the others. Consider this. A beautiful and famous woman will attract a lot of good looking and wealthy suitors in the age ranging from late twenties to early thirties. Yet look at Heidi’s relationships; the three major most recent ones with middle-aged men. Also look at the facial features of Ric Pipino, Flavio Briatore and especially Seal. These men will not be remotely considered as physically attractive by women were it not for riches/fame. Why does Heidi Klum have this history? Whereas she may be attracted to unattractive older men (strange as it may sound), one needs to consider the possibility that rich, good looking and young lifetime-exclusive heterosexual men will not bother dating the likes of Heidi Klum. It is in this context that you need to consider the profession choice of Ric Pipino, something that attracts a lot of homosexual men, and Flavio’s history of dating masculinized models and Seal’s involvement with another masculinized model before Heidi. The scenario is pointing to the fact that famous masculine women such as Heidi Klum are disproportionately attracting men who are candidates for not being lifetime-exclusive heterosexual, which needs to be seen in the context of my reply to Ali’s contention that these masculine women have been involved with some rich and famous men and hence they are sexy to many [exclusively heterosexual] men.

You have pointed out three women from the attractive women section. The first one’s strength is her waist-hip proportions, and just ask lifetime-exclusive heterosexual men whether they prefer the facial features of Heidi Klum or Gisele Bundchen to hers.

The bodies of the other two women are more of their strong point than their faces. This is especially true of Sonia Blake (the third woman). Sonia Blake has no chance of becoming America’s Top Model because the winner would need to please male homosexual fashion designers, but look at her body and ask yourself where she would place in this pageant if exclusively heterosexual men were in charge of it. There are plenty of women in the attractive women section whose combination of facial features and physique is better than those of these three women and you just ignore them. This section is only going to get better with time, with additions/replacements.

Ali: I will help answer your question about who looks better in lingerie with pictures, some videos and computer-generated figures/animations. The computer-generated images/animations can present masculine and feminine women side by side in similar poses/animation and dress, which will help the comparison issue by keeping factors other than physical femininity constant.

Marketa doesn’t pose nude, and this may comfort you. Her physique from the waist down is that of someone in her late teens; she is only girlish elsewhere.

The popularity of Victoria’s Secret has to do with their heavy promotion and glamorous portrayal. I will post a video to illustrate this. Since homosexual men dominate the fashion business, the VS Company and others like it (e.g., Frederick’s of Hollywood) don’t have to deal with of yet.

What you buy at JC Penney, Belk, Dillard’s or equivalent isn’t high fashion. The models you see in the advertising in these stores are often commercial models, who are lower tier fashion models, not the big ones that I am focusing on, and hence they could be feminine more often.

Women who get chin or cheekbone implants generally do not try to make their features more masculine. They attempt to correct a deficit.

Starting a lingerie alternative will have to wait. I have to work on making this site better known first.

I have addressed Dove’s campaign for real beauty and pointed out its shortcomings.

I still don't understand your point about marketing lingerie. Marketing and advertisement is something which is thought out to the very extreme, nothing is left to coincidence, so I really don't think the lingerie companies are doing anything wrong (in respect to selling the most) by using the models they are using. If they knew that using more feminine models would make them just a minimally higher amount of profit, that is just what they would be doing.
A woman in an earlier comment thread brought up that women buy lingerie for themselves not men, this is true. Women like cute colours, lace and applications, girly stuff. Most women also have no problem of sexually arousing a man even if they are wearing their white cotton set. Furthermore most women are WELL aware of what their body looks like, are very critical of it and of other women's bodies and know that wearing something modelled by a vs model will not give them the model's body but it's cute and worth spending money for nevertheless. I kind of forgot what point I was trying to make, lol, thinking about nice underwear.
Oh, and have you ever seen the cute bras they have for large cups? Not a lot of options there unfortunately. I totally understand why the models are required to only have B-C cups (also the average in the general population). Beyond D it all seems to be fleshtoned granny bras :( I am often envious that some of the gorgeous whisps of transparency are only for the A cups.
BTW, sorry for commenting on old threads, I'm chronologically going through the archives...

Susie: There are not a whole lot of old threads within this site...just look at the comment posting you don’t have to apologize.

One doesn’t have to carefully think about marketing when there is demand for a product and hardly any competition. If there were a prominent lingerie company using feminine models, then the others offering comparable lingerie products would have some competition and would need to use more feminine models, but VS can so far get away with its choice of masculinized models because other lingerie companies use similar models. You are again looking at the gay domination of the fashion business, which spills over to lingerie companies, as the reason why lingerie models are often masculinized, not marketing considerations.

Once again, whereas women would typically not have a problem arousing their male partner, lingerie would help put their partner in the mood when he normally would not be. Women are not necessarily passive recipients of their partner’s advances, but some like to initiate their own contact.

The point about what kind of models would be appropriate for lingerie modeling was explained in the first part of this series.


How feminine is veronika zemanova, is she the extreme end of femininity or is there any masculinity in her?

I'm in agreeance that most of the Victorias Secret models look boyish in the face and body, but I like Adriana's face... It's beautiful to me... I am an even bigger fan of my own girlfriend Robyn Chance. She's a knockout. her face and figure are extremely feminine to me. She's almost entirely of European descent and has 5% Cherokee Indian and models for men's appeal (FHM, Maxim) and is known for being petite and all natural (no surgeries not even fake lashes... believe me I know, she's perfect). I thought I knew what feminine looked like until you said Adriana's face was mannish.... so you tell me?? am I corrupted by the magazines? lol

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

here are 3 more of my little angel.

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

Adriana Lima's face is a bit manish, agreed, but in a subtle way.
Her claim to femininity is based on these features:

- Big eyes
- Small jaw
- Full lips

That gives her a neotenia-ish look.
What happens when we remove those features?

Shit happens! :p

Sorry, neotenic/neotenous is the proper adjectival form.

You, that made the whole research for Victoria Secret models, are stupid idiot, and have to find normal job... Hey, you are discussing about the most famous and the most beautiful women in the world that were chosen among ZILLION other girls, especially Adriana, Karolina and Heidi. I don't see any masculinity in here and there is no point to make comparison with some nasty nude models that look pathetic, just like porno divas. Get over with, it's not worth discussing it all of you here.

I have yet to find artractive the women erik use as examples of "femeninity"...
They all look like victims...women that look weak,with a look that screams low self esteem,and just totally ordinary,vulgar and above all CHEAP.
I find it funny that this guy wants this type of girl to be in the industry instead of women with unusual,exotic looks.
My guess is that hes atracted to women who look unthreatening to him, therefore his dislike for women with a strong ,athletic,independent,unusual or agressive look.
Im just looking at all those pictures of pudgy faced women with no chins,eyebrows and bad hair he uses as examples of the "holy grail of femeninity" and I just laugh...histerically laugh and laugh again. just got issues and BAD taste.
Adriana is B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L ,if theres "masculinity" in her...she was truly blessed with it.
As I commented on another post, you might use a certain "clinical" or "scientific" criteria to identify "femenine" traits... but you dont hold the magic key to "true beauty",as to tell people what they should find atractive.Beauty is an OPINION,not a fact.
Many people could,and will find beauty on these "unatractive" "masculine" "adolescent boy" women that you insist of pushing as "wrong". Even much more atractive than the ordinary and ugly women you use as examples.
Maybe if you had better taste,and used better examples of "femenine beauty" that do not come from cheap adult sites,without bad teeth ,bad hair,bad skin,that dont scream "white trash", your site would be much more credible.

Wow, I can't believe someone else agrees with me that Giselle is masculine, I thought I was the only one that thought that. However, with the exception of Giselle, the reason why the VS models appear to have masculine bodies is mainly due to them being so so skinny and tall. It is therefore the lack of fat and their long limberness that makes their bodies appear non curvaceous. In regards to Adriana Lima I think she is the sexiest girl on the planet and have always noticed her slight masculinity forehead (due to her ethnicity) but it gives her a sexy look, besides the rest of her face is feminine.

Adrian :

Maybe if you had better taste,and used better examples of “femenine beauty” that do not come from cheap adult sites,without bad teeth ,bad hair,bad skin,that dont scream “white trash”, your site would be much more credible.

This is Adriana Lima with some relatives :

Hmmmm... it looks like "brown trash" to me, doesn't it?

I find it funny that this guy wants this type of girl to be in the industry instead of women with unusual,exotic looks.

Define "exotic"
I mean ... those fugly brownies are EVERYWHERE !

You have to realize something :

- Rousseau is DEAD
- Paul Gauguin is DEAD
- Margaret Mead is DEAD
- Claude Lévi-Strauss soon will be DEAD (G-d willing)

You are living in the past, buddy.

Catch up with modernity and stick to the facts or get back to Samoa.

So Der Arschloch has finally revealed himself as a racist bigoted idiot. Why am I not surprised?

why dont you go munch on eriks ass? thats all youre good at.

oh ,yes ,the above message came from me (samoan boy with no laptop)

Danielle :

So Der Arschloch has finally revealed himself as a racist bigoted idiot. Why am I not surprised?

* yawn *

So now I'm a racist...

Hunnie bunnie, you need a blast from the past

Der Arschloch, I don't know if english is your third language but it certainly seems like it. I don't recall calling white people fugly or insulted them the way you insulted brown people. I don't think super pale skin is very attractive but most white people don't have skin that pale. You really can't point fingers at anyone because it is clear from your post that you are a racist asshole and you need to take reading classes.

What's your problem, hun...
I said "fugly" instead of "aesthetically unappealing" or something. Big deal.
You don't mince words either, your posting record speaks for itself.
Now do us a favor, jump off your High Horse and break your neck.

I know the likes of you, you would save your minority pets from themselves even against their will
Patronizing morons...

I cannot believe I spent (wasted) my time reading this crap!

i like to lick vaginas

Wow, I randomly arrived at this page from a google search gone awry, but not only is this the most retarded claptrap I've ever laid eyes on, its racist retarded claptrap! BONUS!

I mean, you might as well tattoo "I have gender identity issues" on your forehead if you think Adrianna Lima looks like a tranny...

Der Arschloch, you are indeed racist, and not only that in an especially stupid way! Having brown skin or non-European features in no way makes one mannish, you must have woke up next to a tranny then went on a crusade to decide who is feminine "enough" or something... I can explain it no other way.

Sturmrabe :

Der Arschloch, you are indeed racist, and not only that in an especially stupid way! Having brown skin or non-European features in no way makes one mannish [...]

Shut up, idiot. Don't put your words on my mouth.
I'd rather have Erik's rooster on my mouth than your words - go figure.

Brown/dark complexions are fugly, period.
That's what I said.
That's the color of:

- Malign melanoma
- Mass illiteracy
- Low IQ's
- Tribal warfare
- Bellies swollen by tapworms
- Crappy water supply


Hardly fashionable!


WOW! What a racist turd! Oh Well... It's not like I expected anything better from you Der Arschloch. It is funny that someone who lacks basic reading comprehension skills would think that he can hate on people for having "low IQs" or for being poor.

I pity you Arschloch. Your life is made out of FAIL. You probably get your ass kicked by those "fugly" brownies every day of sad life.

At least you admitted that you want Erik's cock in your mouth.

PS. WTF is "malign" melanoma?

Danielle :

WOW! What a racist turd!

Well ...

I don't like dark complexions - you don't like light complexions

Big deal - Big difference

I say Tomato - You say Tomah-to

Hun, I told you to jump off ur High Horse and BREAK UR NECK in the process.

Try again.

PS. WTF is “malign” melanoma?

Google is ur phriend


Danielle :

You probably get your ass kicked by those “fugly” brownies every day of sad life

No, I don't (not yet!)
Why are you assuming that?
You lack imagination, hun.

I could be a pushy jew pretending to be a German bigot pretending to be a White wingnut writing about :

"My Brownie Problem" (And Ours)

In that case, I couldn't be a "racist" no matter what (It Would Follow By Definition)

You see ... on Teh Internetz nobody knows that ur a (whatever)
Your nazi/racist smears can't stick, you stupid noob. So stop trying.
Anyone with half a brain can see that.

What a fucking psycho! This dude thinks I don't like "light complexions" when I only said that I don't think that SUPER PALE complexions are very attractive. Many white people share the same opinion so they must be racist too!

The term is "malignant melanoma" Der Arschloch. Google is your friend too. LOL @ your pathetic attempts to insult me. Try again fool! Erik has said that he did not want white supremacists coming to this site with their garbage but I guess all the juicy racist shit on these pages is irresistible to fucktards like you Arschloch. I won't respond to your crap anymore. Have a nice life.

Tom: Veronika Zemanova has well above average femininity, but note that her breasts are not natural. So I would stop short of describing her as extremely feminine. There is nothing masculine about her.

Jose: I didn’t describe Adriana’s face as mannish, but there is an obvious masculine element to it. Your girlfriend, Robyn Chance, is on the muscular side and doesn’t look feminine. I am not calling her manly.

Der Wanderer: Neotenic is the wrong word since it implies retention in the adult of the juvenile features of the ancestral species (which would be apes or something close in our case), but adult humans’ face shape is distinct from apes’ juvenile face shape.

You mentioned swollen bellies due to tapeworm infestation, but the typical reason for the swollen bellies sometimes seen in Third World children is lymph fluid leaking into the abdominal cavity because of inadequate protein intake.

Adrian: If beauty is an opinion, then most people share the same opinion, and regarding women, this boils down to a preference for feminine looks. You have described yourself as a male homosexual. So why bother trying to understand heterosexuals’ preferences? I don’t have to make my site “credible” to homosexuals.

Steve: You are not alone. I have ran into similar comments from people who believed themselves to be the only person to see masculinization and unattractiveness in some heavily promoted models. Anyway, it isn’t just forehead shape, but also the chin, the low-set eyebrows and the cheekbone placement that are contributing to a masculine element in Adriana Lima. The masculine bodies of many VS models are not an artifact of being skinny and tall. I have shown numerous pictures of slender women, many with above average height, that don’t look masculine because their skeletal proportions are feminine (examples).

Sturmrabe: No one is describing Adriana’s looks as those of a male-to-female transsexual’s. Read carefully. And, Der Wanderer never argued that brown skin or non-European features make Adriana look masculine.

Danielle: Der Wanderer used “brown trash” and “fugly brownies” sarcastically in reference to Adrian’s use of “white trash,” and hence Der Wanderer’s comment doesn’t qualify as racist. You have used much worse terminology (e.g., fugbeast and I believe white trash, too). Der Wanderer’s dislike of brown/dark skin is a personal view, and he has explained to some extent why, namely the negatives it reminds him of, which isn’t racist by itself, and the comment doesn’t imply hatred of poor people or those with low IQ. Something disliked is not necessarily hated. You yourself don’t like white skin. I recommend that you look at white people’s backside (most don’t tan it) to see for yourself how super pale they naturally are.

In reference to “super pale skin” (natural white skin color in the absence of blemishes and sun exposure), you said, “Many white people share the same opinion so they must be racist too!” No honey, you got it wrong. The preference among whites is for a tan, not naturally darker skin, but if you look at the preferences of the hundreds of millions of dark people who seek skin lightening, their preference is for naturally lighter skin.

Der Wanderer’s reply to Sturmrabe said that he would prefer my member on his mouth to the twisting of his argument by Sturmrabe. What do you think the “go figure” expression means? It means that the former option is totally unacceptable to him.

Why can’t you stick to a reasonable debate? Der Wanderer’s initial comment was a graphic illustration that is fully relevant to the article, but you, Adrian and Sturmrabe had to steer the discussion toward absurdities!

Wow Erik! You are not only a "feminine beauty" judge/ anthropologist/homosexologist/delusional asshole but you are also a mind reader and an expert on racism! I had no idea that white people preferred ~unnaturally~ tan skin as opposed to naturally tan skin. I am sure that you have conducted a poll so that you can back up that little ~factoid~. White people use artifical means to get tan skin but they prefer ~unnaturally~ tan skin and Black/Brown people use artificial means to get lighter skin but they prefer ~naturally~ light skin!!!! You are a genius and a psychic Erik! I am glad that the world has you in it so that you can shine the light of knowledge into the darkness!

Der Arschloch sees dark skin and he is reminded of wonderful things like mass illiteracy and tapeworms and that isn't the least bit racist! Good info Erik! I'll take that to heart!

I still think that Arschloch gets warm when he thinks about your kibbles and bits but it is kind of you to break down his complexity of his statement to Stumrabe.

BTW I don't see what there is to debate on this page. Gigi is ugly and is unsuitable for life much less modeling. Adriana does her job well and her ~naturally tan~ ass is admired by many white guys. Isn't that enough for you? I mean isn't that the appropriate criteria to judge how hot a woman is? If white guys wanna fuck her then she's *~hawt~*. The end.

Eric, I changed my name to Steve510, ok her chin is a bit big but its not excessively big like Jennifer Annistons chin for her to be classified as masculine. I have to disagree with you about tall women having feminine bodies and faces, not all but most girls above average height are not very curvaceous and thus do have masculine bodies and faces like big square jaws and broad shoulders etc. This is because girls are not meant to be as tall as males, tall height in females is a masculine quality and thats really the main reason why most supermodels have a masculine appearance. Whenever I see a picture of a girl's face with masculine features, I think to my self I bet she is tall, 9 times out of 10 I am right. I really like your site as I thought I was the only one that thought most supermodels looked masculine looking and have never really been attracted to them except Adriana Lima, Josie Maran and a few unknowns. However, I believe your site needs tweaking, for instance you mention that high cheekbones are a male quality, when in fact the opposite is true. Women have higher and more prominent cheekbones than males, thats why male to female transsexuals get cheek implants. Look at these links:

Another thing that I think people are getting confused about on your site is your "attractive" women section. I am a white exclusively heterosexual man who has looked at your attractive women section. With the exception of Katherine Heigl and Charlize Theron and a few others, most of the girls are quite ugly, and I think you know that. I believe your intension was not to promote attractive gorgeous women in this section, but instead promote feminine women, to show examples of women who don't have big square jaws and protruding foreheads. So you should rename your "attractive" women section to "feminine" women, rather than attractive women, as it is clear most of them are not attractive.

On a final note the reason why men may still find models such as Alesandera Ambrosia and Hedi Klum and others attractive, is because their features are not overly masculineized, ie: they don't look like men. Therefore, with the exception of Giselle they are still good enough for us guys to find them attractive because they have not reached the threshold that makes them indistinguishable from men. I personally don't find Alexendra Ambrosia very attractive because I don't like her narrow elongated face. However, I can see how others do find her attractive, as she has perfect symmetrical and unique looking facial features.The reason I don't buy your argument homosexuals choose models that look like boys intentionally is because most of the judges on Americas next top model are homosexuals and most of the girls that win do not look overly masculine to me to be classified as adolescent boys. at least in the face.

Feminine Americas next top model winners

Eva Pigford

Naima Mora

Nicole Linkletter

Danielle Evans

Jennifer Aniston's big chin

Here's a pic with Adriana Lima's figure, she is standing in one place not posing to accentuate the hips, yet she still has a feminine figure and not a masculine one as you proclaim. Granted, its not overly feminine as some of your glamor models but its good enough as her lower half is wider than her top half. Remember, the hourglass figure is the rarest of all body types, so it would be difficult to find someone with an unbelievably beautiful face and an hour glass figure.

Erik surely you can guess if veronika zemanova is extremely feminine with her natural breasts, what great difference would the breasts make and what great difference is there between extremely feminine and well above average. Have you an example of an overall extremely feminine woman?

googled more pics of her do you agree she looks absolutely hideous many of her pics due to her breast implants.

Danielle: I didn’t talk about “~unnaturally~ tan skin as opposed to naturally tan skin.” By naturally darker skin I meant genetically darker. Regarding Der Wanderer’s comment, illiteracy and tapeworm infestation are much more common among dark-skinned populations than among whites. So what is racist about his comment?

If there is nothing to debate on this page, then you need to stop commenting. Gigi was posted with Madeline (most of her comments have been left as Sarah) with mind. I am not serious about using her for lingerie modeling. A woman’s hotness is not judged by whether men are willing to sleep with her. Some men have such low standards that you could say that they will sleep with anything.

Steve510: You are wrong about the masculine look in fashion models being an artifact of height. I have shown plenty of feminine and tall women within this site. Within any ethnic group, feminine women will be less common among tall women, but given the resources of the fashion industry, there should be no problems finding a large number of feminine tall women.

I did not say that “high cheekbones are a male quality.” What I said is that masculinization causes a higher placement of cheekbones on the face. Women do indeed have more (horizonatally) prominent cheekbones than men, but their cheekbones are placed lower on the face. The references that I have cited to support these assertions are taken form peer-reviewed journal articles and are far superior to your three citations.

Based on the feedback that I have received, your assessment of most of the women shown in the attractive women section being ugly is very atypical, and I don’t see any need to rename the section.

You reject my argument about gay fashion designers on very weak grounds. Not one of the models you have pointed out are among the top ranked high-fashion models, and none except [borderline] Nicole Linkletter is feminine. Look at the top-50 high fashion models’ pictures when they started modeling (mid-teens or late teens max) and then ask yourself whether I got it wrong. You need to realize that the Next Top Model show is marketed to the general public. It is used by companies to pitch their products to the general public. They are bound to put some feminine women in the show, but they are more likely to be eliminated, and the winner will obtain modeling contracts as promised but she will not necessarily become a big star.

I haven’t described Adriana’s physique as masculine, but more like it being insufficiently feminine for the job. Your picture is inadequate because her face shape is unclear (hair + shadows), and she is standing with her shoulder blades drawn together, making her shoulders look less wide. Whereas hourglass physiques are uncommon, the fashion world has the resources to find women with such bodies and faces that would strongly appeal to most people, but the homosexuals are not interested.

Tom: I do not have pictures of extremely feminine women. Small breasts vs. what you see in the pictures would make a difference regarding whether she is well above average in femininity or extremely feminine. I don’t like Veronika Zemanova’s face, but I don’t find her ugly.

Eric, I agree my citations are not as superior as are your peer reviewed journals, and I had 2nd thoughts after I post them. Yeah I know there are feminine tall girls out there, but it may be rare to find them with symmetrical and unique features. My picture of Adriana Lima was to show her lower body being bigger than her top half, not her shoulder blades or her face. Ok saying the women in your attraction section are ugly maybe a bit harsh but their not beautiful and most are average at best. You must admit some do look like trash, like that one you have up in the corner, WTF is up with that? Here are the only ones I find attractive in your section.

Thats only 11 girls I find attractive out of 60 girls in your section, the rest are average at best! I have searched this forum like crazy where is the feedback that people love your attractive woman section? Do you they send you emails or something? I wasn't trying to argue with you about why masculine models are more popular than feminine ones, I was just offering an alternative explanation, your idea about homosexuals picking girls that aesthetically please them maybe right but I doubt it. Why do you use girls from trashy nude model cites, why not use more from magazines that are catered for men but are more classy like FHM or even penthouse? Usually those ones don't have skinny non curvaceous supermodels.

I find it hard to believe you are attracted to these women, I mean come on they look like men in drag, their faces are too elongated.

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I just realized I missed one, but that still only makes 12 that are better than average looks in your attraction section. Is your section about girls better than average looks, or girls that are just average?



I also dont find veronikas face very attracive though i would also not class her as ugly, she has a wonderful looking body but her face lessens her overall appeal by a long shot making her look pretty average most times.

Danielle wrote

"Gigi is ugly and is unsuitable for life much less modeling."

Funny how it's the sane, non-racist person who is deciding who to march off to the gas chamber as unfit for life.

The argument (it would be absurd to call it a debate) sunk to new lows with Danielle's remark about Gigi, who is, after all, a person, even if folks don't find her the most attractive.

I frankly found the remark that someone was unsuitable for life to be far worse than anything Der Whatsisname said. >_<

But, I guess open-minded tolerant people can say whatever they want when decrying the intolerance of others. *eye roll*

Dingleberry, don't take my statements so seriously. I don't care what Gigi does with her life and I'm not wishing for her to bite the dust. I just wanted to be mean. I haven't killed anyone and I haven't mentioned gas chambers anywhere in any of my posts. I haven't attempted to "debate" anything on this page. I called out Der Arschloch for being a racist which he IS and that's all I did.

Erik, I am pretty damn sure that most white people don't have a specific preference for skin that is not ~genetically~ tan. They like tan skin that looks natural. It doesn't matter how they got it. People with those fake orange tans get mocked. Many white people have naturally tan skin.

Dark skin is just dark skin. Attaching specific negative connotations to dark skin IS racist. He doesn't like dark skin because he thinks that people with dark skin are poor, sickly idiots. It doesn't take a genius to see through his statements.

DUH, it's easy to see why she looks masculine. It's the brow. It's more prominent than the other girls. Her actual eyebrow is low-set and not thin. It creates a deeper-set look that is attributed to men because testosterone creates a large brow ridge when teenage boys develop into adults. She has that same thing going on, but the rest of her face is girly. It's the only reason she looks slightly masculine, body notwithstanding.

wow. looked at this site a while back, and stopped back in, wondering if i misjudged it. you are clearly spreading white supremist doctrine by "educating" men on the subtle beauties of feminine white women. it is soo sad that there are still people so caught up in making sure the white race continues, when we are all human---all one. while an earlier poster mentioned dark fuglies being everywhere, being connnected to poor water supplies, etc---one could easily connect pale skin to ruthless, predatorial, conquisadors that ran over the earth in pursuit of material things worth not even a fraction of the human lives lost/destroyed. all ethnic groups have had their dark times and heydeys.

but i probably won't change your opinion. i just hope God heals your heart. cleanses out the irrational thought patterns, ignorance, and prejudice.

danielle--- erik's statements are reminiscent of the white knights, etc. and other racist sites. i only know because i am familiar with the history behind a lot of racism.

In this point, I do not like adriana lima, she has thick thigns, her chests and butts are like of african people, she isn't look like hour-glass. her ears also not pretty, looks quite like the ET, and has no tip. but to compare with the meloned breasts women that erik posted. I have to consider that adriana lima is prettier than them..

One again, after take a look at the nude woman poses in the field and water of erik. lol may I ask you some question?? Do you like the body of pragnant woman isn't it?? because your model, her breasts and thigns are so titanic.

Adriana is beautiful.

Newsflash, Idiots: Adriana Lima IS BLACK, Indian and Swiss. These are words from her OWN mouth. Her African features are quite prominent in her jawbone structure, nose, lips, hair texture (non-permed it is like that of other biracial people) and skin shade. She gets pale just like Alicia Keys and Halle Berry. THAT alone doesn't make her white. Thus she has the pleasure of being ridiculed on this site, yes?

I actually find this site hilarious because you have all of these pasty, white, predominantly trashy-looking and out of shape women who you are comparing to Adriana Lima. Yet each photo you exhibit of Adriana os so stunningly beautiful that it pokes a giant hole in your case. I just scrolled past your racist, insecure rhetoric and saved a few of those awesome Adriana Lima photos to my computer -- thank you.

Oh, and I hope you saw the Super Bowl. Yeah, THIS commercial ran, solidifying Adriana Lima's status as a TOP MODEL. She doesn't need your validation, dear. Enjoy :)

WHITE men love ASIAN women, so take your fight to Lucy Liu and start tearing away at her Chinese a**. White men prefer Asians over pinkies, hahahaha!!!

Nice website. Thought provoking.

I agree that the strong homosexual male influence in the fashion industry drives the imagery for that industry in the media. I can't look at VS or sports illustrated's swim suit edition anymore since the models look like adolescent girls (oh wait, some are adolescent girls) or boys.

Compare the fashion industry with the movie industry. I think you'll find much more examples of "feminine" beauty in the movie business. Primarily because the audience is hetrosexual. That's why Elizabeth Taylor, Marilyn Monroe, Halley Berry, Charlize Theron are icons of the industry. All feminine.

Interesting the effects of this on commerce in the fashion industry, tv&moveis and society at large.

Keep trying to keep girls feminine!

i really dont see what skin colour has to do with beauty? Whether she is black or white is redundant. I say this from an unbiased point of view as I am mixed race myself. I dont think being black makes you beautiful and i dont think being white makes you beautiful either. Beauty is a composition of many factors, yes face and body do matter but i cant believe that hardly anyone on this site chooses to admit that beauty is completely objective.

This woman is fat. there's a lot of fat around her waist and hip. Is she already has been pragnant? I've never seen the virgin young ladies with that stunning huge sack breasts before. by the way, I've read in some site that the hourglass figure isn't mean the women with huge breasts and fat hip but the woman with slender stall shape with average or small bust like cate blanchette and Live tyler, the woman you pose as feminine isn't hour glass shape but apple shape.

Here the hour-glass figure.

also scarlette johansson.

You say the Victoria Secret models look masculine, yet I see a lot more women with B cups than those huge double Ds every day. I also see naturally sized butts, very rarely do I see a huge butt unless its on someone who is obese with a large waist. You can't call something "masculine" if 99% of real women have it, which in this case would be a less than hour glass shape. A trait can only be called masculine if its reserved for men only, and maybe a small subset of women. Both body shapes are obviously feminine, because FEMALES HAVE THEM. I don't know why i'm even explaining this. You're delusional. This is what happens when people watch too much porn I guess.


The following are links to pictures of Veronika Zemanova before her plastic surgery (breasts)

In your previous comment you said "Tom: Veronika Zemanova has well above average femininity, but note that her breasts are not natural. So I would stop short of describing her as extremely feminine. There is nothing masculine about her"
Tom: I do not have pictures of extremely feminine women. Small breasts vs. what you see in the pictures would make a difference regarding whether she is well above average in femininity or extremely feminine. I don’t like Veronika Zemanova’s face, but I don’t find her ugly"

What is your stance now? Personally to me it seems her breast surgery did increase her feminine appearance and with her breasts natural compared to her surgery pics there is a clear difference in size. Also having looked up some videos of her in you tube my conclusion is that although her body is amazing , on an overall perspective she seems to lacks real sexualness/sensuality because of her devoidness of any element of masculinity in her to quote you "There is nothing masculine about her" her face to her body looks too feminine to be sexually appealing. In other words her sexual appeal seems limited.


Her body is fine but there doesnt seem to be even an element of masculinity in her face hence reducing her sexual appeal

i have never read such utter crap in all my life. Go get a hobby.

I have a number of photographs of Adriana Lima framed in my house like in an art gallery. I am a photographer and I really never knew much about Adriana but I know what I like as a hetero man and as a photographer. I show people the pics and I tell them this is what a model looks like. She has the exotic/island girl look. It brings up the fantasy of sharing a life in an exotic/warm climate with a beautiful woman who wears very little clothes, if any, and enjoys it just that way. I am all for it. She is beautiful and looks playful as well. The eyes, big lips, nice breasts, cute little butt make her very interesting for me. She is a woman, not a man.

oh man, this is a big femininity/masculine debate. ok, I'll admit that adrianna has some masculine traits. But from interviews she is very feminine in actions, so watever the masculinity came from, I don't think because of excess of androgen. Besides, if she's masculine then you all will probably think I'm a hermaphrodite! (or man) which, if you know me, i'm considered by many of my closed ones as quite feminine. that aside I don't think you should be trashing one of thhe most beautiful woman in the world regardless >.< And some of these so call "feminine" nude models would not get away with my masculinity arrow either if I were to tear them down :d
I still think you're beautiful Adrianna!!!! And feminine!!!! you look like one of my friend ^_^
oh yeah, and she has wide hips, a very feminine trait ^_^

Adriana saying that she is black doesn't mean much. Celebrities often amp up their ethnicity. It would be pretty boring if she just said "I'm Portuguese and some other stuff, too."

Fill in the blanks;
Now that Adriana Lima has just gotten married...
And, she is no longer a virgin...

I find Adrian Lima to be exotic.
Which to me is erotic.

What about sexy/beauty?
Is sexy necessary to a model or to a woman?
Is being beautiful enough?

Adriana sells sexy, it's her job. As for the woman herself she admitted to be very shy in real life.

Different people have different taste in women. Some like sexy some like beauty.

You are an uneducated racist
unless a woman is white she is not feminine...

that girl puts half the women in the world to shame with her beauty...

whateve, educate yourself and look around don't have to be white to be feminine there are many ugly masculine looking white women out there...loser...

Veronika Zemanova has an extremely masculine face, even more masculine than Adriana Lima's...

I personally do agree that Adriana is masculine, however, your comparisons to her do not suffice. Veronika has an equally if not MORE masculine face than Adriana. At least Veronika has nice curves and a small waist, even though her breasts are fake...

Then you compare her to a girl with the body of simply a more string lanky prepubescent boy, Marketa from Marketa does not look like a girl, she looks like a malnourished 14 year old boy.

What Marketa lacks is any shape,figure,or definition. She has one of the most hideous bodies I have ever seen. Adriana isn't all that attractive, but at least she has some shape and definition whether masculine or not.

I mean it's not hard to find women to compare her to and show her masculinity. I wonder why you picked such bad examples?...

I am sorry but I slowly am starting to question WHAT exactly you consider feminine? I though I had a good idea until I come across this kind of stuff. Keeley Hazel, which is your attractive women section and is deemed soo attractive by you seems to be very masculine to me now. I originally thought: wow! what a beauty! she can't be real! too good to be true!

Now I see this:

Keeley Hazel 15 Pictures, Images and Photos

small backside, and very broad shoulders. Not even a bit broad, very broad...

Keeley Hazel Pictures, Images and Photos

I know she is being portrayed as masculine in this one, but honestly look at her shoulders in that picture! This was one of the photos that gave me the idea she may be "airbrushed" to look more masculine. However, that theory doesn't really suffice anymore...

Keeley Hazel Pictures, Images and Photos

This photo was posted on this very site. I never noticed the large shoulders, as her large breasts detract away from her shoulders. However, look at those HUGE shoulders.. in relation to her rib cage and waist and hips. They are very broad, and even broader than some high-fashion model shoulders. Lucky for her she has those curves and breasts...

keeley hazel Pictures, Images and Photos

I've seen these photos before, but now that I take a second look I notice that Keeley doesn't have as feminine of a face as I thought? What is wrong with her face here? No airbrushing? Bad makeup? Aging? She just looks very masculine, and looks older than she probably is...

keeley hazel Pictures, Images and Photos

This angle shows you how small her backside is. Not extremely small, however in relation to her sholders very small. She is simply top heavy with large shoulders, breasts, and a small buttocks... Look at her cheek in this photo... I don't see a feminine cheek, she looks like she doesn't have cheeks. The feminine ampleness and roundness of the cheeks is not there.

keely Pictures, Images and Photos

More wide boney shoulders. She could be a football player.

in the photo above she is angled so that her butt looks bigger, however her rib cage and especially her shoulders look ginormous...

a good example showing how flat her butt really is...

once again, above, she is positioned well, but you can tell her butt is flat, and without the airbrushing, it wouldn't look soo good

I noticed that many women who have large breasts, have wide shoulders. However, it's not just her wide shoulders that are not feminine, but her buttocks as well. Every woman has her imperfections, and Keeley Hazel is still extremely beautiful. However, some of her features are extremely masculine...

A woman that is truly feminine enough to be up to this sites standards has large breasts, with narrow shoulders, wide hips, small rib cage, and large/round buttocks...

I find that most women on this site fall short on this by a mile...

Basically, you post photos of average ordinary women... call them feminine... compare them to anoerexic masculine super models, and show us the difference between what is attractive and what is not attractive. In my opinion the average looking girls and the super models are both poor representations of what is attractive. There are a few women that ARE attractive on this site. But oh so few.

Then the women that are supposed to be the "queen" bees like Keeley Hazel seem to actually have some EXTREME masculine traits. It is so funny how keeley hazel has everything you despise:

extremely broad shoulders
no but
non-feminine cheeks

however, you criticize other men for being attracted to Victoria's Secret models, when you yourself are attracted to a pretty football player type woman with large breasts and a small waist...



I cropped her back. Now get rid of the side boob and you have man...


I see a very masculine face...

keeley hazel Pictures, Images and Photos

tiny butt...

but this really confuses me...
Her face can be feminine:
In the photo below the lighting makes her face seem a bit masculine. However, it isn't close to as masculine as the un-airbrushed photos of her outside...
Keeley Hazel Pictures, Images and Photos

In the photo below her face looks soo feminine, and it doesn't seem to be the airbrushing either... so this confuses me...
Keeley Hazel Pictures, Images and Photos

I think I understand why Erik's views come across as so off-base to people who find Victoria's Secret models highly attractive. The facial and body features that Erik labels "masculine" are what most people would call "androgynous". When he complains that high-fashion models often resemble (lean) adolescent boys, he has simply noticed that they share many androgynous features in common. Males and females come in a wide variety of body types, and there is a broad range of overlapping features that both sexes share.

Erik appears to assume that masculine and feminine attributes develop in opposition, and that any degree of masculinity in a female detracts from her feminine qualities. This leads him to react negatively to models who exhibit elegantly androgynous features in an unmistakably feminine context. Highly defined cheekbones and a sharp, delicate jawline do not make a petite, feminine face look masculine, they give the woman who possesses them strikingly androgynous looks which most people find more attractive than a typically bland female face.

In short, Erik is a "heterosexual-exclusive" man who finds anything other than completely feminine women to be unattractive. He thinks that any woman with androgynous features looks transsexual, and suspects any man who finds her attractive is potentially "gay".

damn.. i bet you must be ugly or fat or something to be tearing these beautiful women apart. they might now be perfect but who is and who would want to be anyway.. im glad victoria secret doesnt have perfect models id never buy anything

Well said Lish. The perception of beauty arrises from the self image, genetics and social/familial conditioning of the beholder. What you find beautiful/ugly says everything about you and nothing about the object you label whether it be a person, a painting, a house, anything.

Erik isn't looking to increase the self esteem of women, he is just looking to turn the bias upside down. He objectifies women just like the gay fasion designers. Many straight men seem to think they "own" women and Erik is just upset that the gay boys have stolen his property.

Another point is that most women feel insecure about their looks, even these models. Truth is that some of these models have the exact same self image as a 300 pound woman. As long as women are valued mostly for their appearance they will suffer low self image. Regardless of how you look as a female someone will call you ugly and deem you worthless because of it! It seems to me that most men straight or gay have some degree of hatred towards females.

Adriana's not a transsexual. This is simply preposterous.

Sera, there are certain cultural norms or conventions that indicate what is recognized as femine beauty in every society. Therefore, it is not just in the eye of the beholder where beauty is recognized. As a photographer, I find beauty in certain women that I meet. When they are in front of my camera, their beauty excites me and I want my photographs to show the beauty that I see.

while i can se where the masculinazation of Adriana Lima is on her face (on the first shot she reminded of a young black boy) i must say that she is also very feminine and absolutely gorgeous...
And i agree with what Lish said...also its wrong to compare mixed race women with european women ( whether they are north european or south european)

"Marketa, although flatter-chested than Adriana, has a face, body proportions and backside that don’t give her a boyish look; Marketa looks like a girl."

Yes. You are 100% correct. Marketa looks like a 10 yr. old girl. Not even a 12 yr. old girl, because by the age of 12 I already had a pretty full set of breasts. Most girls start developing those by 12. I have seen men with bigger breasts than Marketa's, men that aren't even overweight.

Seriously, you want to convince me that this girl has a nicer body than Adriana's? Adriana's body isn't all that impressive but holy shit, Adriana has some STRUCTURE! That is an attractive thing whether it is masculine or not. This girl's body actually scares me. I would choose any of the Victoria's Secret model's bodies before I had to choose hers. Seriously! Who are you trying to convince here?

She has a pretty face though. But it's not all that. I feel that Adriana has some structure in her face as well, and that is what makes it attractive. No one wants a blob for a face.

Gigi from Domai would not be ideal for lingerie modeling. Her body is too matronly, it would be a turn off for most men because they would feel they were looking at their mothers.

Her body is feminine, but it is not "young", it is on the saggy side in all the places. She is a tad bit overweight, she would have to lose some weight and gain a tiny bit of muscle mass to appeal to the average heterosexual male.

A "toned" look is not masculine. A toned look shows a man that this female wouldn't be a joke when she tries to run. A toned look makes a female appear healthy, structured, put together.

A feminine woman that is toned is ideal for lingerie modeling. One with large breasts, but not too large. They should be round and perky, and not saggy. Large breasts can be perky. The women in our family have strong underlying tissue that lifts the breast up even though they are large. A tiny bit of sag is alright, but overall most men prefer perky breasts.

This woman would be a joke if she tried to model before she lost some weight and got a breast lift...

Her face is bland and boring as well.

Erik also doesn't appreciate Adriana's low set eye brows, but what he doesn't realize is that the majority of the women in his attractive women's section don't have very high or even regularly set eyebrows. Almost none of them have higher eyebrows than Adrianna. Many of them have low set eyebrows actually. The ones that DO have high set eyebrows are posing and flexing their faces. Many times they are smiling as well. This raises the eyebrows. This is the first thing I do when I want to make myself appear more approachable to a guy. Flexing your face and smiling at a guy is saying," Come here, I won't reject you or be mean to you". Adrianna and the majority of the Victoria Secret models are not posed to be "approachable". They have a completely different allure. The allure is carnal, primitive, exciting, mysterious. "It's not the girl next door, oh she's a pretty cute girl, tee hee hee allure" It's supposed to say, "Look at me and my tight exotic toned body, I'm ready for something, COME HERE and get it, BE intimidated" The intimidating woman adds excitement to the whole situation.

The AVERAGE man likes women that are approachable. Erik represents this with his photos. All the women in there are "approachable". A bland and boring face also makes a woman appear more approachable. There is nothing mysterious, exotic, foreign about a bland and boring face. There is nothing intimidating about it... Men are deathly afraid of rejection. It is a blow to their self-esteem and ego. When I am not interested in a guy and I don't want him coming near me, I don't smile. I look down, away, or try to appear distracted. I don't make eye contact, or I DO make eye contact but it is saying, "stay back, go away, don't come any nearer".

You have to be careful though, sometimes when I am shy or intimidated I look away and appear distracted because even though I LIKE the guy, I am intimidated by him. This happens when an extremely intelligent funny attractive guy is around for me. So, its confusing. Either a girl is shy or she doesn't want you around when she acts like that.

Therefore, guys, just because a girl doesn't smile at you or flex her face in any way, doesn't mean she doesn't like you. The problem may be that she DOES like you and is just shy.

Body language is a tricky thing sometimes.

Someone should do this study, although I would already know the results:

Take 30 women. Masculine feminine, it doesn't matter.

Take 2 photos of each. One of each girl smiling and one of each girl with a relaxed face, expressionless.

Ask a bunch of men to rate the attractiveness of the faces. Shuffle them up.

I bet you men will rate the smiling photo of the SAME woman as significantly more attractive than the photo of the woman not smiling.

Now go on Erik's attractive woman section and count the smiling women...

Men are so predictable. You can easily work them with body language t0o. They are really visually stimulated...

Sorry, I had to come back to this because I think this page is hilarious.

Here are some photos of VERONIKA!

Veronica Zemanova Pictures, Images and Photos

Veronica Zemanova Pictures, Images and Photos

ogre's new GF Pictures, Images and Photos

She doesn't look all that feminine to me. Facially she isn't feminine at all in my opinion. Adrianna is prettier facially in my opinion.

Her body is feminine but I actually am suspicious, maybe she got some ribs removed. Something isn't adding up.

Hey Erik, where did Veronika's waist go? Her small rib cage? Her hips? WTF?




Compare those earlier photos to this later one:

veronika zemanova Pictures, Images and Photos

It appears Veronika got a little more than a boob job. From the earlier photos above it appears Veronika got BIGGER implants, as she clearly had implants back then too. Veronika got a few ribs removed, she also appears to have gotten butt implants. I wouldn't be surprised if she got liposuction either, probably in the arms and "problem" areas. She also got lip injections since then and has probably had more done to her face. Maybe a brow lift.

This woman didn't just get a boob job. She got a lot done. How can you even compare her to Adrianna?

I think Adrianna's body in that red dress is manly. I mean it looks like a guys body. However, she doesn't appear to have the extensive surgery Veronika had done, so it is unfair to compare.

Look at the photos Erik has of her, particularly the first photo of her lifting her shirt up, next to Adrianna.

Compare THAT Veronika to the earlier photos I posted of her.

Please tell me people, how did her waist shrink naturally? How did her rib cage become extremely small compared to before? Besides, the obvious boob job this woman has had a lot of surgery.

I can see the masculinity in this supposedly feminine woman. From her face to her body.

Eriks response to another poster, asking about the femininity of Veronika:

"Tom: Veronika Zemanova has well above average femininity, but note that her breasts are not natural. So I would stop short of describing her as extremely feminine. There is nothing masculine about her."

Well, look again guys. You really can't find anything masculine about Veronika? Facially and body wise? ESPECIALLY in her earlier photos? Hmm...

Veronika's jaw, chin, forehead area do not appear masculine? This really doesn't appear to be due to her ethnicity to me. She to me is not a very feminine woman... She has had too much plastic surgery to be a good example of anything. Why is she even on here?

Ugh, she has no cheeks either, just jutty cheekbones.

I swear its like if a woman has overly large saggy breasts, and it isn't the result of being obese, Erik can't find any "masculinity" to her. Seriously. must look like angel from heaven being able to criticize womens bodies like that. Do you seriously have nothing better to do? The Gigi girl may not be gorgeous facially but any straight man would not hesitate to tap that ass given a chance. Her boobs are no where near sagging, they may be too big for her body but they're just naturally low-set, not saggy because saggy breasts refers to the position of the nipple on the breast mound and the elasticity of the breast skin...I dont see any of that on her chest, the skin is tight and the nipples are positioned perfectly...and then to say she is over-weight is just insanity, most women would be lucky to have the kind of even complexion or waistline/body structure that she has. The average woman in North America is much thicker and heavier than she is, with A-B cup breasts and a more rectangular body shape.

Godis, you are truly mental.

"Gigi from Domai would not be ideal for lingerie modeling. Her body is too matronly, it would be a turn off for most men because they would feel they were looking at their mothers.

Her body is feminine, but it is not "young", it is on the saggy side in all the places. She is a tad bit overweight, she would have to lose some weight and gain a tiny bit of muscle mass to appeal to the average heterosexual male."

Say what? That's a fat chick? Are you out of your mind or do you happen to have your monitor on a bad setting? Would you like to see some fat women?

You must have some kind of eating disorder to think GiGi is fat. Also, GiGi's breasts are not "saggy" those are what natural breasts look like child. I don't doubt you are a bit...ignorant concerning what the human body actually does look like. Most of the commenters seem to be rather ignorant of the fact that there is a very wide diversification of the human body in our population. Now, that being said if you would like to see what REAL breasts look like (in a non-porn setting) please go to

Also check out this gallery of bellies, because yea not everyone's belly is the same. As for GiGi not being attractive to the average heterosexual male-LAMFOROFL you are one crazy woman. I know hundreds of men who would line up to sleep with GiGi in a hot second.

I garner most of you are stricken with narcissism and obsessive compulsive disorders. it's shockingly widespread in western culture during this time period. Is it the fluoride in the water or the fact you never had to suffer through anything serious in your life time? Who knows? Frankly, I don't care. I expect western civilization will breed itself out of existence anyway since most of you are too concerned about yourselves to muster the thought of having children OR you'll end up blowing this whole rock to kingdom come. the iran talk is getting rather scary and i wish you "civilized", "western", "eurocenteric" folks would just blow us up sooner rather than later because the suspense is not even amusing anymore.

I recommend at least a weekend stay at a nudist camp to get some additional body awareness. You will see all shapes and sizes. Every female is unique and that can be beautiful at times. Create a new appreciation for the human body. Since everyone is nude, the body that you brought is good enough and you just might admit that you enjoy the beautiful diversity of the varoius shapes and sizes.

As for GiGi not being attractive to the average heterosexual male-LAMFOROFL you are one crazy woman. I know hundreds of men who would line up to sleep with GiGi in a hot second

I never said she wouldn't be attractive to heterosexual men. However, in my opinion she would not be ideal for lingerie modeling. There are better candidates out there, with naturally large breasts, a small waist, and wide hips. These women will not appear matronly. I think it is a turnoff for some men. In one photo, the one where she is less angled and is in water, her hips and waist start to sync into eachother making her have a more rounded appearance. In a sense she has a somewhat rounded belly, a circle. If you notice she is posed in every other photo. In the photo above to the one where is in water, she appears less wide because she is posed at an angle. She looks good in that one, but that is not the reality, its posing. She is much wider and rounder in reality.

Again, her breasts are fine, the thing is from the side they slope really badly and sag. Lingerie model material breasts shouldn't do that. I'm sure many men would find her attractive, but there are better qualified women out there for lingerie modeling.

Actually from the front she has really nice breasts, but the side boob is a WHOLE different story...

"There are better candidates out there, with naturally large breasts, a small waist, and wide hips."

Oh? GiGi has large breasts, a small waist and wide hips. It looks like she's qualified.

"These women will not appear matronly"

Says who? There are many women who have given birth who have the features you speak of.

"I think it is a turnoff for some men."

Considering you don't even know what the human body looks like i do not think you are in the least bit qualified to say what men find attractive. Go out and look around on day child. You are going to discover men sleep with women you find dreadfully unattractive. There is actually a whole subset of psychological literature you can find that shows men are attracted to women who look and act like their own mothers. Looking like you have had children isn't a problem apparently.

"If you notice she is posed in every other photo. In the photo above to the one where is in water, she appears less wide because she is posed at an angle. She looks good in that one, but that is not the reality, its posing. She is much wider and rounder in reality."

Duh, every photo is posed but if you seriously think that women is in any way "wide" you have a vision problem or something is wrong with your visual output hardware. Look into that, I'm pretty sure you just have some form of an eating disorder coupled with extreme ignorance toward human anatomy. Believe it or not most females have a rounded stomach. This is due to a layer of fat which covers the uterus to protect those organs. Some women have tilted ovaries or uterus which also lead to roundness. Both of these factors are perfectly healthy and normal (Tilted reproductive organs being less common but only coupled with reproductive problems about 20% of the time, this is no more prevalent then female reproductive problems for those without this issue) Agian, you simply have no idea what human females tend to look like. You just see images and believe that's what normal women look like. Once agian, you wanna see some fat women? BEHOLD!

And you can call them fat, they are proud of their fat. You need to kick your unhealthy programing. Rounded bellies are VERY normal in females and were worshiped for centuries in art. Nor does that lady have a saggy side boob. You just have no idea what boobs look like. Go educate yourself please.

Bottom line: A company can hire whoever they want to model their lingerie. It doesn't matter what you or I think about it. Their company, their call.

Can a woman have boobs that are too big? Is wide hips good or bad?

"Can a woman have boobs that are too big? Is wide hips good or bad?"

You are asking an entirely subjective question. I'd say your boobs are too big if you have to carry them around in a wheelbarrow. Your hips are probably too wide if you can't fit through most normal doors, otherwise i wouldn't worry too much. Everyone has their own opinions on what is or is not enough. Does it really matter though? I doubt you will be having sex with Erik, Godis, myself or anyone else postulating on this site so does it matter what we think? Hey, what do you think? That's what you should be asking yourself. Do no harm to yourself or anyone else in life and you will do well.

For those of you that actually think Adriana Lima is even remotely "masculine" looking, you're a bunch of crack heads and your jealousy of her is pathetic. Not only is she naturally gorgeous but there's no comparing her to those moon-faced, witch-nosed, crooked toothed whores who wish they had a shot in the real world but instead have chosen to be spread-eagle trollops banking off of the sick internet sex-obsessed sexual predators such as yourselves. Fin.

Oh, and for those of you that dislike my commentary I suggest you take your ugly little bottomfeeder-of-society asses to the nearest mirror or reflective piece of glass/pool of water and accept that you were cursed with poor genetics and move the hell on.

Fin. <3

The author of this web site REALLY needs to get laid.
Most of us hetero guys out here like very wide hips and a narrow waist. And no gay guy really understands how these proportions make us feel. Thus the fashion industry is full of women that just don't do it for us.

But a whole website about this? Full of porno chicks? Someone who has access to a real female would be way to busy to build this website.

Also you seem to want to have the aura of science, but scientists take measurements and make predictive, testable ideas. Where is the science here? Without it you are just a guy telling people you like chicks with big hips and gentle chins.

Well I think that Adriana is just plain beautiful.

Seriously dude, first look in the mirror and see how pathetically ugly you look in real life, a shame of a man. For all we know, you look like this Find a real job and some hobbies and interests in life, something useful you can finally claim to have done in your life. Simultaneously learn to be humble, thankful for what you have got, and respectful of other people's appearances that they can do nothing about. Then overcome your false sense of narcissism, and find a girlfriend who will accept your incompleteness and your flaws (your know which ones). And if you still have time, do something good for the people who don't have it all, the orphans, the homeless, the victims, the people struggling with terminal illness. Instead of being a coward sitting behind your computer screen ridiculing women who don't meet your ignorant standards of femininity, do something useful in life! Get a life dude!

Erik has significant distress from latent homosexuality. He is not willing to accept that he is attracted to men. His self-defense mechanism is to insult all women who have any feature considered remotely masculine.

We all know what happened to Reverend Ted Haggard, another closeted homosexual who berated against homosexuality for decades. Erik, it would be best for you to come out. Accept that you are gay. Accept that you are attracted to transsexual women who retain many of their masculine features. You will be happier, Erik. It is better to come out now rather than later when your computer will be discovered with shemale and gay porn.

Just friendly advice for you, Erik. You have to take the next step to come out.

LOLL!! I thought this comment was awesome.

I'm 5'8 with the 34-24-35 proportions. Lots of people tell me I have the perfect body even though Erik is saying that the women who look like me are tranny. And for me to try to become hour-glass would mean extra-fat that would not work well on my small frame.

Also, Erik sounds like a racist. He thought Eva Mendez was voted as the hottest woman on ask-men by Latino voters only. As if all the Latinos would collectively choose to vote only in 2009 & then flood ask-men with their votes. When Beyonce was picked as the hottest, is it 'cus the 6% of American blacks got together & voted her into the top spot? What a load of bull. (I'm not a Latina - just calling BS when I see it)

i just found this blog and i must say it is interesting...
what surprised me the most is if somebody would ask me "is this model feminine to you?" i would say yes, but on closer scrutiny you find out that some female models which appear very feminine on first glance have male charactersitics on second glance :).

again, look at these two pictures.
in the second one, where the face got cropped out, she could soo be a boy too. most people cannot tell that she even is a female.

do you guys agree or ?!?

Hi Erik,
I actually love your site. As a woman, I have quietly hated the fashion industry for their glorification of the adolescent boy as THE ideal of female beauty... yes the gay mafia absolutely pushes their aesthetic ideal, and it ISN'T female.

As for Adriana Lima... quiet the haters and post some side-by-side pics of Adriana with Halle Berry. Halle Berry is more African than Adriana for sure (being a full 1/2 compared to Adriana's splash) but also SUPREMELY more feminine. People need to stop blaming the mixed-ancestry for Adriana's androgynous look. She is pretty but mannish... Halle Berry is pretty but feminine.

oh, also, calling women out for having facial hair (oh lord) or hairy arms (whatever shall we do?)....
I have VERY soft female features, a large natural cup size, and a lot of curves. I've also got thick, dark arm hair. It's a little thing called genetics. Don't you DARE belittle women because of something like that.
This is sick.

Erik just sounds like an overall bigot. :/

This is a page to see free nudes.... ¿isnt it? xDDDD

...because you've seen them all.

Only a male interested in other men who stares at the faces of men all day would see masculinity in European women. They tend to be exotic looking which idiots often confuse for masculine for some odd reason while plainness (a common trait of Latinas) is often confused for femininity. Adriana is by far more masculine than any other model.

Quote from insider who worked in fashion industry as plus sized model, Eric, who backs up what you say about the fashion industry

"These fashion magazines know EXACTLY what they are doing, too. They get impressionable girls (of a different kind of beauty than the unhuman looking models they use) feeling so out of the loop, they SPEND TONS OF MONEY on makeup and clothes, just so they can look as dreadful and hermaphroditic and these "female" models in magazines. I used to do "large" sized modeling myself (size 12-14) and I know for a fact that some fashion house's requirements for models are so unrealistic that some of the fashion models you see in magazines are actually very pretty, young boys"

Quoted from this site:

Check it out:

Carrie Otis, model, against pro anorexic websites:

Carré Otis: top model, actress and the epitome of a fascinatingly curvy and radiant beauty. It's no surprise that she was chosen to star in Wild Orchid, which consecrated her as a 1990s icon. She has also signed the petition against the pro-anorexia sites and has taken a very strong position.

"I am worried about these blatantly dangerous websites, and I am happy to add my voice to those speaking out against them. Though I support free speech, there are limits. In no way should sites that direct young people to do life-threatening harm to their bodies be legal. As a mother, a role model, and an author I feel compelled to take a strong stance on health and body image issues. I'm grateful to for taking the same strong position. May we all find the courage to support a healthy, respectful, and sane approach."



"In realizing the power of the media in its ability to affect and influence people’s
behaviour, attitudes, values, beliefs, and perceptions, if we combine this effect with the impact of celebrities and the result is rather alarming. An interview study with 15-year-old girls conducted by Wertheim et al (1997 cited in Wykes and Gunter 2005:

150) revealed how the print media was a major influence in developing body image
dissatisfaction by making comparisons between themselves and role models. In a
study conducted in America by Garner (1997 cited in Wykes and Gunter 2005: 150)
MA Communications Studies Miriam Rachel Lowe

Both males and females were reported to study the shapes of models in magazines and
to always or very often compare themselves to these models. Grogan (1996 cited in
Grogan 1999: 106) carried out a study on 200 American college students, half female
and half male, aged between 16 and 48. They were each asked who would be their
body image role model. The results showed that for a large percentage of men and
women under the age of forty, media figures comprising fashion models, actors,
actresses and sportspersons, were reported to be their body image role models. The
older the participants were, the more likely it was for a family member to be chosen
as their role model, thus indicating the importance of media role models for younger
men and women.

These studies certainly demonstrate not only the power of the media to
influence body image perceptions but also the impact of media figures and celebrities in influencing these perception.


Quote from the above study on women's shapes and pressure from the media in general to conform to a certain body type, changing over the years, quote:

"There have been numerous transformations in the ideal female body over the
years. During the Renaissance period, the ideal was full and well rounded, and by the Victorian era, the corseted hourglass figure had emerged as the ideal. The rate of change began to increase during the twentieth century starting with the androgynous, flat Twenties Flapper image, a stark contrast to the seductive elegance of the 1930s’
slinky bias-cut look (Ussher 1989: 38 and Macdonald 1995: 197). This too was a
period when the success and popularity of the visual media had also begun to increase and along with it, a sharpened awareness of external appearance and bodily
presentation. The motion picture industry had become one of the foremost creators
and purveyors of images, thus “The Hollywood cinema helped to create new
standards of appearance and bodily presentation, bringing home to a mass audience
the importance of ‘looking good’. Hollywood publicised the new consumer culture
values and projected images of the glamorous celebrity lifestyle to a worldwide
audience” (Featherstone 2001: 179). From the post-war period through to the 1950s,
MA Communications Studies Miriam Rachel Lowe
the ideal body was buxom and curvaceous but by the 1960s, this had changed once
again, this time to a skinny, almost starved appearance (Ussher 1989: 38). It would
seem that this slender ideal body image has continued to dominate ever since
(Macdonald 1995: 197).
Silverstein et al (1986) found evidence of this potted historical analysis of
trends in ideal body image. They conducted a study that involved measuring bust, hip,and waist widths of models appearing in magazines between 1901 and 1981, which
confirmed the above transformations in female ideal body image that have occurred
throughout the twentieth century. In another study conducted by Silverstein et al
(1986) a similar method was utilized to measure the curvaceousness of movie
actresses between 1933 and 1973. As in the previous study, the results showed how
movie actresses had become thinner and less curvy thus indicating that the standard of female bodily attractiveness have become thinner. A study by Garner et al (1980)
found that that the slender ideal of the 1960s that is said to have stayed with us to the present day, has now changed and is even thinner than before. The thin ideal has thus become thinner. Garner et al obtained data from Playboy centrefolds and Miss America Pageant contestants between 1959 and 1978 and the results indicated a
strong evolution in the ideal standard body toward a thinner shape for women.
Interestingly, this thinner ideal has evolved at the same time that Garner et al also found there to be a significant increase in the number of diet articles in women’s magazines over the same period. Singh (1993) however, disputes these findings that the ideal has become thinner and in particular criticizes Garner et al’s study.

Singh also obtained data from Playboy centrefolds and Miss America winners except the results showed only minor changes in slenderness and certainly did not indicate a trend towards a tubular body shape as Garner et al’s results suggested.
Not many would agree with Singh. Bordo for instance certainly believes that the
ideal has continued to grow thinner to the extent that a body we would once consider
slender would now be seen as fleshy. Bordo states: “as our bodily ideals have
become firmer and more contained (we worship not merely slenderness but
flablessness), any softness or bulge comes to be seen as unsightly” (1995: 57).
Guendouzi expresses similar sentiments: “The media currently presents a world view
that implies women should not only be slender but also ‘perfectly-toned’” (2004:
1649). Thus, it would seem that the ideal body image in the twenty first century is one that is toned as well as thin – a requirement that is actually even harder to achieve."


"Furthermore, for the media to portray a woman as
‘sexy’ there are certain stereotypical criteria that tend to always have to be met. The woman has to have a thin body with a perfectly flat stomach, show lots of cleavage, and have skin so smooth that it looks more like plastic than flesh (Walsh-Childers
2003: 141-3).

In this sense, it would seem that the media only has one definition of sexy. Yet
it is wrong to say that a woman who does not meet any of these standards cannot be
regarded as sexy." Quote from study.

Source, same as above:

Burchill (2000) writing in the
Guardian has observed that “to be a woman today is to be subjected to a barrage of
nagging from cradle to grave, much of it about morals, conduct and health, but mostly on the way one looks…Whereas a woman might once have been disapproved of

merely as sloppy, today her appearance calls into question her sexual orientation,

morals and even sanity”.

Fouts and Burggraf (1999) carried out a content analysis of prime-time
television situation comedies to examine the body weights of the main female
characters. The study also analysed the verbal comments received from other
characters regarding body weight as well as the main characters’ self-comments about
their own body weight, shape and dieting activities. The analysis found that females
who were below average body weight were over-represented receiving more positive
verbal comments regarding body weight and shape from the male characters than the
above average characters. Above average characters were therefore, underrepresented
with dieting characters giving themselves more verbal punishment for
their body weight and shape."

Although the above study is more concerned with the negative role of the media as depicted by TV shows on women's weight/beauty issues, the fact that hollywood itself is very influenced by the fashion industry in this regard - proven by different studies- should not be overlooked.

Source, same as above comment.

Honestly, the 'hyper-feminine' women featured here just look way too average and boring. Which is why they aren't models. Duh.


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