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Extreme femininity

Some individuals have asked whether extreme femininity is aesthetically desirable in women.  This question is best answered by pictures.

The following series of pictures depict front, side and three quarters views of a European, an Asian and an African whose faces have been varied from the masculine side of the female average (first image on the left) to average (second image from left) and increasing levels of femininity to the right.  Facegen modeler was used to come up with these images.  Look at these images (click for larger versions ( 2000 x 430 pixels)) and pick the most attractive level of femininity.  Since few women keep short hair, you may hide the top of the pictures while judging if it will make you more comfortable.

European masculine vs. feminine women, front view

European masculine vs. feminine women, three quarters view

European masculine vs. feminine women, side view

Asian masculine vs. feminine women, front view

Asian masculine vs. feminine women, three quarters view

Asian masculine vs. feminine women, side view

African masculine vs. feminine women, front view

African masculine vs. feminine women, three quarters view

African masculine vs. feminine women, side view

Based on numerous studies, most people find somewhat above average femininity (say 25-50% exaggeration of femininity from average, depending on other features) but not too feminine faces most appealing in women.  There is, of course, individual variation.  My own preferences are #3 (from left) in the European and Asian and #4 in the African.  If the imagery showed more subtle variation, then in some cases the optimum for me may lie somewhere between #3 and #4.  Different optimal preferences notwithstanding, there is an upper limit of femininity that is appealing for every person.

A similar scenario can be shown for the body, too.  However, one of my computers with the necessary software is in a separate city at present, and it will take me a while to get it and work on the physique part.  In the meantime, one can look at, say, the following woman with massive breasts.

Anna Song Anna Song Anna Song

Anna Song from Nadine Jansen’s site.

Anna Song is feminine and her breasts represent extreme femininity.  I would find her more appealing if she had smaller and more proportionate breasts, and this is likely true of most people.  A minority will like her humongous breasts, but even for this minority there will be an upper limit of the aesthetically optimal breast size.

Anna Song doesn’t have a small rib cage and has well-developed musculature and bones, which is why notwithstanding the extremely feminine appearance of her breasts, it is difficult to describe the woman as extremely feminine overall.  A previous entry on sexually antagonistic selection addressed the problems related to the derivation of estrogens from androgens.  To produce a very feminine woman, one would need above average estrogens and below average androgens, the underlying genetic profile of which does not favor men, and hence these genes will be uncommon.  Therefore, women that produce above average estrogen levels will often also produce above average androgen levels, and this is why women with massive breasts often also have larger muscles, flatter backsides, a heavier bone structure and other indices of masculinization, and in this regard Anna Song is among the better looking ones.  This has already been addressed on the “feminine vs. masculine” page.  To understand how a woman with above average estrogens and below average androgens would look like, take a look at the following comparison of an ordinary woman with mannequins.

Nikki Schieler

Nikki Schieler from Playboy magazine.

Note that the mannequins do not have a well-developed musculoskeletal frame, especially wide hips, especially large breasts or a hyper-feminine face.  The breasts in the mannequins would correspond to a woman with a D-cup, which is nothing unusual.  However, the mannequins look strikingly much more feminine because of the small rib cage and tiny waist as well as a more feminine face.  Women with above average femininity who are closer to the looks of the mannequins will easily be found more appealing by most people than women with the following combination compared to the average: larger breasts, wider hips, more protruding backside but also a larger musculoskeletal frame.  Of course, if the femininity of the mannequins is further exaggerated, then they will look increasingly cartoonish and their appeal will go downhill beyond some point.            

If one could find, say, 1000 very attractive women with physiques approaching the mannequins’ (they don't have to be very close) and put their pictures in bikinis online, present day “beauty pageants” will be finished as they are and a huge bunch of “beauty queens” will be dethroned.  These women can be found if one had sufficient resources.  Wish me luck at acquiring these resources.



I was wondering- what are your thoughts on the femininity and attractiveness of Jessica Simpson?

Hahaha Anna Song's boobs make me gag.

As for the mannequins, wouldn't you say that Nikki Schieler's physique comes quite close to them? You didn't address her at all; only the mannequins. Her WHR is very attractive, but I'd prefer if her top bust was smaller than her hips (like with the mannequins). Her face however, doesn't seem very feminine to me.

Oh and just throwing this in here.. Jessica Simpson is Ricky Martin in drag. I swear on my life! Whenever I hear a man say how hot she is, I lose all respect for him.

And just so you know, Erik, thanks to you, you have actually helped me see just how masculine she really is! I've always found her unattractive before, but after visiting this site, I realized it's because she's so mannish.

The lady in the first picture (Anna song) apart from her humongous breasts there doesnt seem to be anything extremely excessiveley feminine about the women

her huge breasts make her look almost mummyish if that makes sense

are the mannequins more excessivley feminine than anna song erik?

Anna Song is just another one of your trashy side-show freaks, Eric. Stop pretending that you dont find her attractive.

She has all the features that your so-called "attractive" women posses. She has glazed eyes, sallow skin, a daft facial expression and even a fat, rancid cameltoe. She looks like your dream woman Eric. Don't remove her from your attractie pile just because her tits are a little pendulous and udderish.

Adina is so fierce but I don't think this creepy dude would appreciate her looks. You have to be dumb, plain and sleezy to appeal to Eric.

Get that butchy banshee out of my sight!


You may not agree with Erik's "replacements", but he still has a point.
Stop trolling, this is not a site for lesbians, homos and S&M fans
Not that there's anything wrong with that...

I prefer the 4th and the 5th picture on each row. I wonder what the rest of the body would look like. What body shapes would probably go with 1, 3 and 5 from each row?

Eric, your theories are riddled with holes. Here are two young women who have about an equal number of masculine traits:

Yet obviously, the first girl has 'fashion model' looks, the other does not. It should be clear that the fashion model look is not simply a case of masculinization even though you are correct in saying that models have many facial features that are more masculine than the average. They also have some features that are more feminine than average that you convenintly ignore. Although models have high cheekbones (masculine) they also typically have flared cheekbones that protrude and take up a large proportion of the face which is feminine, in this regard they are more feminine than population average. Male cheekbones are high but have less flare, appearing more retracted from a 3/4 angle and they end higher up on the face.

this girl:

Has masculine cheekbones - they are non protruding and she has quite a bit of facial fat, but look at how much facial length she has below her cheekbones.

this girl:

Has much more feminine cheekbones - they end at the same level as her mouth. Her facial skeleton differs from the average woman in being more robust.

Which of the above girls has 'fashion model' features?

I can't help but notice that on average the glamour models have closer set eyes than the fashion models. Wide apart eyes are a more feminine trait. You mentioned the masculine narrowness which indeed fashion models do have, but not the feminine spacing. Very convenient. Eyes that are close-set, and appear round because they are horizontally short with rounded outer corners are also a male trait but are rare on fashion models.
Little beady close-set round eyes are a MALE trait. Notice also her masculine nose, hairline and jaw. Yet she doesn't look like a fashion model at all.

So yes, fashion models have some masculine features and overall have more than average, but it's clear that not just any old masculine features will do. Now you explain this by saying it is specifically UNDERAGE boys that models are supposed to resemble, and a woman who is masculine but not fashion model material resembles a more mature male. Consider the first two girls in this post again. I'll bet my bottom dollar that if you showed me an averaged face of 15 year old white american boys the face you would get would be the second girl, not the first. Your theory does not hold up, because female models have some features that are very atypical for teenagers, be they boys or girls.

heavily contoured features:

Not typical of teen boys. Firstly a teenage boy's facial bones are not fully grown. Also teenagers, boys and girls typically have smoother, less detailed looking faces even if they have robust bone structure. This is because of the way the facial fat is distributed in teens, and has little to do with overall bodyfat%. In men and women with robust facial skeleton this 'chiselled' look becomes more apparent with age as facial fat distribution changes. Compare kate moss as a young teen to now at 34. Models wear makeup to emphasize the contoured look. If it's so crucial that models resemble a boy of under 18, why draw attention to a feature that could actually be associated with ageing?

Squinty eyes:
This is not a youthful feature. In in girls OR boys. In caucasians eyes appear to narrow with increasing age and make the face appear more threatening. Women's eyes are typically more open than men's but fashion models frequently have eyes that are narrow even for male standards. In photo shoots models are often photographed with an expression that emphasizes this feature.

Generally severe, 'hard' look.

Associated with status and dominance in men. Hardly to be expected of a teen boy who has not yet finished pubery. High fashion models adopt a facial expression which exaggerates the dominant features.

You are a homophobe who believes that gay men are a sort of mild pedophile attracted to boys not yet finished pubery. You are trying to shoehorn every last physical trait of models into your 'teen boy' theory. It is more accurate to describe models features features that are very mature but with less pronounced secondary sex characteristics.

Hey eric:

Which out of these two men is more primitive/robust? Which is more masculine?

Which woman is more primitive? Which is more masculinized?

btw what I'm trying to point out is that the 'model look' seems to be somewhat more primitive/mature than population averages (though nowhere near the extent of Maria Shriver) yet no more, in fact rather LESS 'masculinized' or 'feminized' than the average population. Kinda like the body put a lot of energy into bone growth but not much into developing secondary sex characteristics.

you are trying to explain the differeces in terms of a single axis of masculine/feminine, which is incorrect.

David: Jessica Simpson is obviously masculine. I do not find her attractive though some people do.

Sarah: Nikki Schieler’s physique does not come close to the mannequins’. Note Nikki’s much broader rib cage and larger feet. She posed topless for Playboy and you can clearly see breast implants in her topless pictures.

Jim: The mannequins represent a physique more feminine than Anna Song’s notwithstanding their smaller breasts because they possess a smaller rib cage and a less robust musculoskeletal system, i.e., the mannequins stand out because of their overall features whereas Anna Song stands out because of her breasts alone.

8D: Pictures like yours make it difficult to judge femininity because of the posing and hair hiding a lot of the face. You can still infer the masculine face of the woman; just note the forehead projection/sunken eyes. Her waist-hip proportions seem feminine, but due to factors other than sex hormones, a masculinized woman can have one or two features that look feminine. If you look at more pictures of this woman, Adina Fohlin, you will see just how masculine she is overall.

Name: The physiques would get correspondingly masculinized with facial masculinization. The software that I used only generates faces. I will have to come up with an illustration of physique variation later.

Twisty: I don’t believe I have ever argued that the female high-fashion model look simply requires masculinization. There are obviously other requirements, too.

You are confused about cheekbone variation as a function of sex hormones. You can see in the illustration series above that with increasing feminization, the cheekbones expand both sideways and downward. If you see a combination of a) cheekbones expanded sideways but also higher or b) cheekbones contracted sideways but also expanded downward or lowered, then no simple conclusion regarding masculinity-femininity can be made until the cheekbones are evaluated in reference to the rest of the face.

For instance, the redhead glamour model has “type b)” cheekbones, and given her overall facial features, there is no way you can call her masculine or say that her cheekbones are masculine. Whereas the fashion model below her has more horizontally expanded cheekbones, more robust facial skeleton (you have noted it) and a reduced lower face height, she also has a squarer chin, deeper-set eyes and broader nasal bones. Overall, the redhead’s face looks more feminine.

Take a look at the zygomatic arch (bony arch joining cheekbones to the bony part next to the ear) of a masculine man and that of a feminine woman (left). Note that the zygomatic arch of men is more robustly built. In a number of cases, the flared part of high-fashion models is a powerfully built zygomatic arch, and you need to distinguish this from a sideways expansion of the cheekbones.

I have several pages focusing on the facial features of high-fashion models contrasted with glamour models. Face page 1 features many high-fashion models with regressed and higher cheekbones, and their features closely approximate those of adolescent boys on average. Face page 2 shows many high-fashion models with regressed and higher cheekbones plus finer facial features. Face page 3 features high-fashion models with high cheekbones that may or may not be prominent sideways, but these women tend to have a robust facial structure. The cheekbones page focuses on high-fashion models with flared zygomatic arches and high cheekbones. The general appearance of the fashion models’ cheekbones on these pages is not feminine.

The glamour models on face page 3 are supposed to be masculine/robust. You took one example from this page (the woman with close-set eyes), who happens to be contrasted with a much more masculine-looking fashion model, and used this example to make a case for more feminine eye spacing in fashion models. The latter is not true, on average.

You have used the expression “teen boy who has not yet finished puberty.” I have been talking about homosexual designers going after the adolescent-boy look. Adolescent boys have already gone through puberty. Some of them have squinty eyes (similar to Esther Canadas’) or a contoured face outline like the jawline/cheek lines of Iekeliene Stange. Some adolescent boys may also have a “hard/severe look” as in the woman whose picture you posted (who also happens to have regressed and high cheekbones, which you have glossed over).

You need to be looking at the overall picture. The central tendency is clearly to approach the looks of adolescent boys notwithstanding some models who don’t approach this tendency. I have never argued that homosexual men are some sort of mild pedophiles. My argument has simply been that homosexuals and bisexuals are much more likely to be attracted to children than heterosexuals (1, 2).

I haven’t just focused on a single axis, namely the axis addressing masculine-feminine variation. Just contrast the fashion models on face page 2 with those on face page 3 (links above). Those on face page 2 have finer facial features but are still more masculine than average. I have also addressed the issue of facial robusticity extensively in the contest of international beauty pageants (see the beauty pageant link, left navigation column).

yeesh, you dont expect anything out of women except for super genetic perfection, eh?

Erik what do yuo think of dani minouge sister of kylie minouge and in comparison to kylie who is more feminine? and also you mentioned esther canadas. Is she overall masucline or feminine?

so basically erik, large breasts no matter how large alone do not make one more feminine


What do you think of singer charlotte church is she feminine/masculine?

would you describe her as having a plump body/look? where on the masculinity/femininity scale would she be?

8D: My reply to Twisty does not suggest that I expect “super genetic perfection” in women.

Jim: Danni Minogue appears to be normal with respect to masculinity-femininity. Esther Canadas is not feminine. Yes, larger breasts do not by themselves make a woman more feminine.

Tom: Charlotte Church appears to be normal with respect to masculinity-femininity and seems to be prone to obesity.

Is there a way that a woman can become more feminine?Eg: estrogen therapy,estrogen balancing herbs etc

erik when you say @appears to be@ do you mean you are not enitrely sure. So charlotte church isnt above average femininity?

Erik when you say normal with respect to masculinity/femininity what do you mean exactly? do you mean neither particularly feminine nor particularly masculine?

Mary: Estrogen therapy would require a doctor's prescription, and would only be recommended for women with below average estrogen levels since there are some risks such as increased odds of cancers of the reproductive system and mood disturbances. There are many plant sources that provide estrogenic substances (phytoestrogens) that are capable of having a biological effect, though there are questions such as what works and what are the risks. I will have to look up the literature and will post something on it at some point.

Tom: If someone asks me to rate a non-model, a non-beauty-pageant-contestant or a not-well-known person, I usually look up a few pictures of the woman and state my judgment. I use "appears to be..." because I have not looked up the woman's pictures extensively.

You got the meaning of normal with respect to masculinity-femininity right.

These are the women in my "great beauties list" Grace Kelly, Ava Gardner, Greta Garbo, Catherine Deneuve, Claire Forlani, Hedy Lamrr, Dita Von Teese, Lana Turner,Dorothy Lamour, Dorothy Dandridge, among others.


is extreme femininity a correlate of beauty in other words the more feminine looking one is does it equal the more attractive they are or...?


do you agree that an excessively feminine looking face isnt very appealing and that slight masuclinity of the face but not the body is very desirable for attractiveness than a face which looks too feminine?

John: What does this article argue? It argues that there is an upper limit to femininity that is attractive. I don't see why you didn't get this message. Starting from the average, a woman's beauty will increase with greater femininity -- as far as most are concerned -- but only to a point beyond which it will diminish. Slight masculinization of the face in a woman will usually not be an aesthetic problem.

I found your website through a search on the golden ratio and since then have read everything I could find on your site.

I have found most of the information on feminization vs masculinization to be very persuasive and informative.
Without a doubt you are a very intelligent man.

The only problem I have with your website is that often the application of your dogmas on feminization fail tremedously and discredit your site. To speak specifically, your section on Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Models vs Glamour Models seems to be filled with fallacy.
I believe in what you try to communicate in your site; however, I beg that you would find better examples.
It seems that many times you confuse mediocre glamour models with glamour models that are actually feminine.
There are glamour models that are feminine but inferring that all glamour models are superior to high fashion models is questionable at best.
It just isn't tactful to lump all glamour models into the same class.
There are obviously many that are feminine but... you get my point.

This post, however, is about this article. You wrote about women who have an enormous amount of estrogen and low amounts of androgens and I was wondering if the following woman fit into that category.

She is Anya from
I am under the impression that she may be a case of extreme feminity.
I am also wondering if you might know what that scar is on her lower right abdomen.

I understand that you may find reason to defend yourself against this post but I ask that you would primarily answer my question about the girl in the picture as I do actually agree with you on your notion of femininity vs masculinity.


It looks like the picture shorted out so here is the website which features her instead.

Hi Erik,

I usually see fashion models on the runway and in the street. they are often very near to me and I can see them for long time and very well. Most of them are very feminine and gorgeous and men in the street tell them "you are beutifullll".I tell you what I can see very well:they have very beautiful skin without wrincklness, acne or other imperfections, they are very young and are similar to female child. they are very slimm but not skinny because they have very slimm bones, long legs (but the majority of them are not very tall:they are 170-173 cm tall but they seems very tall because they have very long, slimm legs).finally the faces:they have very small faces, more small than average women.they have small mouth with pumped lips and big eyes.they have very regular faces.they are gorgeous, really.

grace kelly is incontestably a feminine woman, who appears to have squared gonial angles-is it just me, or is her jawline squared?

regarding extreme femininity, actress scarlett johannson seems to fit the bill, notwithstanding a vague hint of boyishness in the face. am i correct? i feel halle berry should be included in your attractive women section ; her femininity overrides those of other white actresses, and certainly those of her dark-skinned compatriots

Erik, i feel that you are so very much mistaken in most everything that you say. Upon first reading your site i was under the impression you were actually a female and were just supremely jealous of the supermodels you were discussing. It was as though you felt yourself to be more feminine than them, and that you needed to exclaim to the world that most everybody is in complete denial to think supermodels are actually attractive.

You know what... supermodels that make a list of the top 25 are there because they are attractive. Ask most heterosexual men if they would like to spend a day with a supermodel and what do you think they would say?

The women you have used to demonstrate more feminine aspects of the female makeup are a long shot from being as desirable as the supermodels you are attacking.

Masculine looking men aren't generally considered in the most attractive category when it comes to female preference. It seems that a slightly feminine face (with less-than square looking features) are desirable for reasons of a more balanced testosterone level - where increased testosterone can be the cause of aggression and violence.

So, an increased femininity in men and an increased masculinity in females looks to be where heightened-attraction in today's society is being found.

I can agree wholeheartedly that a purely feminine face WAS the most attractive for the past many hundreds of years but this is no longer the case.

Women have been treated as sub-ordinates for many thousands of years, but if you look at the last 40 years that has actually changed dramatically and will continue to do so.

Where a women's sole job in life used to be to bear and raise children, today and hopefully increasingly so in the future, women will be performing more and more significant roles around the world.

Men looking for a potential mate today don't just see a child-rearer, they also see a business partner, a financial contributer, a co-decision maker and so on.

The more masculine features that you notice on these models is actually a sign of increasing intelligence and aptitude for doing jobs which were typically considered male-dominated. Research distinctive female cheekbones elsewhere on the internet and you will find many instances where there are significant correlations between high-cheekbones and successful women.

So please shut up about your feminine rant. The very act of you discussing women in this way, and saying that non-feminine is bad, is completely stupid.

If these women have evolved to be on this earth with all the signs of being a woman, then how are they any less of a woman because they have distinctive cheekbones and trim physiques.

The pure attractiveness that has seen these women succeed in a modeling career also makes it clear that society wants to promote this type of genetic makeup (among very many others i might add).

So - give us a thousand years and there will, in my opinion, being many million more women who look like the supermodels of today. They will be smart, capable, and be capable of producing children with the same qualities.

Stop pushing your chauvinistic views on other people. I am sure you are a sad man that would date a supermodel in an instant given the chance.

I would like to see on my own eyes some of those small faced, childlike gorgeous fashion models, because so far I haven't see any fitting that description, even on best of their photos; petites, on the other hand are perhaps more likely to have such faces, and slender bones.
And concerning men on street telling them: “you are beautifullll” ; funny, that's what they are telling me also, and I am nobody, not famous, not glittery dressed, no make up, and I believe, they say that to many women with 'model counter type' looks

>>I would like to see on my own eyes some of those small faced, childlike gorgeous fashion models, because so far I haven’t see any fitting that description<<

....That is, unless they are still very young, beyond the age 13 or 14 they all get bad jaw or whatever.

my penis was cute off @ youg age

last post was not mine, Erik, you should know that, some debased lowlife, probably 8D hiding behind my name so insidiously; only she was so obsessed with small penises, sounds like she was messing with horses....

There I go again, and I decided I wont be a part of such degrading conversations.

that wasn't me, moron. tell erica to check IP addresses. you're not smart, are you?

anyway, here's a picture for you to ponder.

PS: you're male. get over it. no women would degrade their own bodies like you do


You are the one who degraded her body , and some clown you are,demonstrating what manner of people are opponents to this site.
You know nothing about my body.

That photo is quite cute, looks like face of my husband.
Mine is smaller, so much of a man I am.

Beside my face, people also praise my intellect.Daily. And educated people. But no, I am not very smart.Certainly not enough to guess, that it was you using my nick name, when posting from another computer, so what will IP address clear to me?

Michael: Your example of me tremendously failing at applying my “dogmas on feminization” and discrediting this site is a statement that an article on SI swimsuit models is filled with fallacy. You then exhort me to find better examples without specifying in what manner, and list some fallacies, none of which I have committed. How am I supposed to respond to this?

What do you mean by mediocre glamour models? If you are referring to social status, then this is not what the comparisons are about. If you are referring to looks, then point specific examples and the fashion models they are compared to.

Where have I made the assertion that all glamour models are feminine? It would be an easy matter for me to post pictures of masculine glamour models.

Anya is feminine but not extremely feminine because her breasts are not big enough. An extremely feminine woman cannot have a below average feminine appearance with respect to any important aspect relevant to a feminine appearance. For instance, look at Jaime Hammer; nothwithstanding her curves, even she is not extremely feminine because her face isn’t feminine enough.

Lena: Fashion models are typically bound to have very good skin. They also tend to be young, but here are some issues concerning the rest of your observations. High-fashion models are on average 178 cm tall. Most fashion models in the 170-173 cm range are unlikely to be regular high-fashion models, and are likely lower-tier models. You have indicated that you are Italian. The Italian government banned skinny fashion models and models below 16 in late 2006. Therefore, you may be observing the effect of the ban, which is not seen in New York and other big fashion centers. Regarding facial features, there are some ethnic issues. Many people in Northern Italy are derived from the Germanic tribes that migrated to Italy and have finer facial features, on average, compared to the more indigenous Mediterranean people and descendents of Roman-era non-Germanic slaves in Southern Italy. Italian fashion models are usually of Northern/Germanic descent, and when assessing their facial features, you should be comparing them to feminine Northern women, not the southern masses, and perhaps you will not have such a high opinion of the faces of the high-fashion models.

Ruth: Grace Kelly did have squarish jaws. She wasn’t particularly feminine, but looked good. I don’t see how you can describe Scarlett Johansson as looking extremely feminine. Halle Berry has had nose jobs. I am reluctant to use such women as examples of attractive women. In any case, I do not have a section of this site where attractive non-European women are shown.

Stewart: Plenty of studies cited within this site argue against the notion that the top fashion models owe their status to most people finding them very attractive. Their status has a simple explanation: the gay domination of the fashion business.

You are mistaken that somewhat increased femininity in men is considered desirable from a female perspective. Studies overwhelmingly show that women prefer above average masculinity in men’s physique, but the face studies do not show a clear picture: some indicate a preference for above average masculinity, others for below average masculinity and some have not related male face attractiveness to masculinity-femininity. These discrepancies can be resolved, but this is not the place to be addressing this issue.

If you believe that the masculinity of fashion models is related to women increasingly participating in formerly male-dominated jobs, then you need to look at video game female characters. What is more stereotypically masculine than combat? These female characters kick butt and are often dressed to kill, but they are typically very feminine looking. I am a great fan of women shown with swords, knives, guns and futuristic weapons (example), and these images cannot be beaten in my opinion if the women look very feminine.

My arguments cannot be summed up as “non-feminine is bad.” I have also not argued that masculinized women are less of a woman than feminine women.

8D: Goddamn, you need to behave. I checked the IP logs and you were the one impersonating Bron in the comment stating “my penis was cute off @ youg age.” What is this? Bron is a woman. This site is not meant for immature individuals. Begone! Never impersonate others.

Noooooo Erik,

I'm Italian from milan, the capital of world fashion. The models I see on the runway or in the street are high fashion models by the most important agencies of the world like woman,elite, ford and why not. and the majority of models that work in Italy are not italian!!!!I usually observ that these girls speack brasilian, russian and very often your observations about etnical origins are not correct because the models in milan are not italian.they are very very slimm (for exemple they have very small buttock)but this depend to the bones that are very slimm in this girls.I tell you what are the high fashion models not also in Italy but in the world because the girls who can work in milan, probably work all over the world.

erik, you are right when you tell tjhe the majority of models are 178 cm tall and over and I also see them but high fashion models are not only 178 cm tall...I want to tell that if a model is less than 175 cm (and I see very often these models)she seems very tall because she have bone skeleton structure and very slimm bones and very long legs that she appears very tall and she's select by fashion agencies and work also on the catwalk of high fashion designers.

Devon Aoki is 5'5 and did these runways, tiny , but I don't remember whether she had also tinier bones than other models or very feminine ribcage.

5'5 is very short to be model...I didn't see models short like devon aoky...but the majority I saw is 172 to 176 cm ...I see also models 185 cm tall but they are not the majority...

you can see models that usually work in italy on this site: and click "in town".that agency is one of the most important in Italy and if you go out in Milan you can see very often models like them.The models I saw in the street are similar to the models(and you can see very often also models of that agency in the centre of Milan)of that agency.sometimes I thinck that the agencies don't tell the troth about the mesureaments of their models, the models are shorter than in the composites...ex:laetitia casta in the composite is 171 cm but she's 164 cm tall...

well, they are not too short, when thin and proportionate, petite girls look even better and so do clothes on such mannequins. My observation is not uncommon and is patent, when people are not brainwashed with reccuring phrases.

Erik said:
If you believe that the masculinity of fashion models is related to women increasingly participating in formerly male-dominated jobs, then you need to look at video game female characters. What is more stereotypically masculine than combat? These female characters kick butt and are often dressed to kill, but they are typically very feminine looking. I am a great fan of women shown with swords, knives, guns and futuristic weapons (example), and these images cannot be beaten in my opinion if the women look very feminine.

A good example is the Dead or Alive series. Unfortunately, when they made the movie, they chose actresses who were less feminine and cute than the women of the game (of course the images in the game are an unrealistic ideal, but the actresses chosen weren't even in the right direction to approach the ideal).

I bet my entire Trump Tower that Erik is a fat whore.

Erik you wrote the line "anya is feminine but not extremely feminine because her breasts are not big enough. An extremely feminien woman cannot have a below average feminine appearance with respect to any important aspect relevent to a feminine appearance" Does this mean a woman has to have huge breasts as they are percieved as feminine in order to be classed as extrememly feminine? as that is a point you argue against earlier with anna song or do you mean that a extrememly feminine woman has to have at least one physical feature to the extreme that is percieved as feminine in order to be classed as extremely feminine?


who would marry a fat whore like you? lulz. fat whore fat whore 8D maybe erica. hahahahaha.

Erik-can you post a page or two on some men-perhaps including actors,singers etc,as the range in male models regarding masculinity will possibly be limited.
Im interested in seeing whats extreme masculinity,femininity and everything in between.

If a girl has very large breasts, with a waist that is not particularly narrow and hips that are average to wide, an average bone frame with a masculine looking face and a deep voice then she would have high oestrogen as well as high androgens?

What are some of the effects of high androgens in females?

And what are androgens? Are androgens the same as testosterone?

From the computer generated images,I find #4 to be the most appealing from the caucasian and asian group,and #5 on the black group.I agree that feminization to an extreme makes the faces of the first unapealling,it tends to expand the face too much horizontally and it gives the nose a sort-of funny ,cartoony look.
From the mannequin graphic I agree that they are much better looking than the real life model.
I have browsed your atractive women section ,and tho' many stand out to me as ordinary and vulgar(not because of their style or poses,but because of their physical type and faces) some are indeed very beautiful, and helped get your point.
I found these women to be AMAZINGLY beautiful facialy:
1-Lisa Welch -perfect ,a living doll
2-Nikki Case from penthouse-femenine without looking bland or ordinary, and to some extent ,I do believe that facialy ,she resembles a fashion model.Her feautures are not paticulary soft or rounded.
3-Rita from Karups is very beautiful ,despite her awful style...

on the other hand some of your other examples are almost laughable to me, like natasja from domai(page 2) or lindsey marshall from page 2,she looks very bird-like,same for katie from atk galleria,shes is simply horrible to me,she looks sad and too child-like (and theres "somebody" around talking about the commonness of pedophiliac tastes on homosexual men...)
On the other hand I agree that actress catherine haigl is beautiful,extremely beautiful.
This is coming from a homosexual male of 27 yrs old with no interest in adolescent boys...hehe
Tho I agree that that homosexual males dominate the fashion industry pushing an unhealthy unrealistic ideal of beauty that does in fact mimics those looks of adolescent boys, I do not blame it on pedophiliac or sexual fantasies of them desiring adolescent boys sexually.In my opinion is more due to them having fantasies at an early age of becoming fashion designers on the future, so these designers problably tried on ,or made some femenine clothing for themselves ,maybe their self image in the mirror of a 12 year old boy in mommies dress stucked and thats why they select models who remind them of that image? It could possibly be caused by the fashion dolls(barbie,etc) girls play with and they wished they had? Fashion dolls tend to be very skinny with abnormaly long proportions and narrow hips,this could have stucked in their mind as the ideal female form.(despite barbie dolls rather large breasts)
In conclusion...I think your site would me much more credible if :
1-you used better examples of femenine beauty in your atractive section.
2-you stop insinuating that gay male designers are atracted to adolescent boys
3-You include women of other ethnic gruops on your atractive women page.Come claim this site adresses white "western"women...there are plenty of latin ,asian and black women that are "western" and you could easily include some examples,no one expects you to go into the amazonian jungle to capture aborigens...just 3 major groups living in the United states,asian,black ,hispanic,you could easily find fitting examples.

here is an extreme feminine woman, though with way to much makeup

big eyes, soft brow, soft round cheek bones, small chin, small mouth but full lips, large breasts but yet still delicate shoulders

oh and here is one more, comparing contrasting our rare extrem. fem. beauty with a normal fem. beauty namely catherin zeta jones...fate would have it that they are wearing the same dress...but jones looks like a man compared to haifa so extreem femininty gets the vote at least in my humble opinion

Not sure if anyone has made a similar comment yet, but as a bisexual woman I find myself most attracted to extreme femininity, or at least much further along the scale than you (In your first set of pictures, I unanimously prefer the women to the far right). I like women with serious curves, and personally I think that most of the women in your "attractive women" section, while more attractive to me than high fashion models, are still not voluptuous enough. I obviously don't speak for all lesbians and bisexuals, but I feel I'm not alone in my preferences, considering what I've heard from lesbians I've known.

You might be interested in the following study:

...which concludes that lesbians prefer, overall, a greater proportion of body fat in their partners, with the most voluptuous women being the most attractive. They also seem to share the same WHR preferences as heterosexual men, although there is a tendency to deviate from this norm and rate women with a slender build and high WHR as attractive.

I'm curious: how important is it to you to please groups other than white male heterosexuals? Do the preferences of lesbians (who obviously have a stake in this as well) count, if what we're talking about here is promoting more sexually stimulating high-fashion models and beauty contestants?

I have to say, Erik, that your website is intriguing me more and more each day. I made some derogatory comments in the self-esteem section which I still stand by, but the topic is just too interesting for me to dismiss.

Erik, do you have an example of a woman who is overall extremely feminine, head to toe?

Is the right-most woman in this comparison chart from your "Feminine vs. Masculine" page such a woman?

I have to say that with me, your website achieved exactly what it's aiming at. This morning I woke up knowing how I looked and how I'm supposed to look. Now I haven't the slightest idea, I'm blank! I've never felt this way, such a tabula rasa. All I know is that what I thought to be beautiful, aesthetic, feminine, sexy and healthy - each of the concepts in my head has been demolished to tiny, indecypherable pieces and now I'm on my way to reconstructing them from scratch after I finish reading the site and comprehending all of this info. Today for the first time in my life I'm going to step ouside of home not knowing *how* I look, how harsh to judge myself and when I look at other females, I'll probably laugh because I'll not know *how* to feel and how to estimate which of us is doing better. It will be like meeting aliens or listening to a foreign language where I can't tell if what I hear is good or bad, let alone what it means. You may have saved me from becoming anorexically skinny. I learned so much that I had no idea about. Thanks to you, I might even consider skipping the extensive diet I was planning and instead focus on my skin and muscle tone. Thank you for everything!

D.: Yours is an interesting comment. You are not the only person who, as you state, cannot apply to yourself what you have read. I cannot make sense of your comment either, which may be sarcasm, or sincere, or a combination.

Just to make it clear, my comment was sincere. I am indeed thankful for your work. The reason I said I cannot apply what I've read is that it's complicated. So, so much information that I had never heard. For instance, before yesterday I had no idea you can judge a woman's hormones by her backside. To you it is common knowledge but to me it's groundbreaking news. I knew some men like big bottoms but I thought they just liked big fat deposits or good muscle tone. I don't think that even men know it has anything to do with some bone hidden underneath. So, now I have to read your whole site, memorize the info, learn to apply it, and then starting reviewing at all the pictures I've seen in my life to look at them from new angles.

By the way, could you explain the concept of the feminine hairline and the masculine one? I tried to deduct this from some of the images but I'm not sure I made the correct conclusion.

Also, when it comes to cheekbones, maybe it's a good idea to somewhere make a note about the difference between the high cheekbones and the ones that are simple visible for the lack of fat deposits. I saw that in this article you described the proper ones as "sideways protruding" but I don't think that makes it clear enough. I'm pretty sure that what people actually like about this region of the face is the lack of chubby cheeks which would obscure the bone structure, not that they actually demand the bone to have another shape or size.

D.: A less feminine-looking hairline is one that is receding at the temples. In this diagram, more feminine on the left, you can see how women tend to have more hair in the temple region.

The cheekbones thing may be clearer if you read this and scroll down on the linked page to read comment #42.

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