This article is writen from the perspective of the typical man.
Suppose that a man wants a son that grows up to look similar to the Greek God shown below.
The typical man doesn't look anything like a Greek God. More specifically, he lacks the combination of a projecting forehead, regressed jaws, very prominent nasal bones (but not the nose tip) and fine facial features. He never got to choose his parents. However, having a son is a different matter. The mother can compensate for the father’s deficits. The problem is that the typical woman whose masculinized version would approach the looks of a Greek God would not look feminine because of features such as a projecting forehead, prominent nasal bones and regressed jaws. As an example, look at the following woman. The very first picture makes one guess that the woman most likely isn’t feminine. She is somewhat masculinized, but still looks impressive to me, and this is coming from someone whose isn't very appreciative of masculinization in the looks of women. Something about a combination of fine and chiseled features along with a shape shifted toward that of a Greek God/Goddess is impressive.
As one would expect, the woman’s physique isn't that feminine either. A video will better reveal this than posting a bunch of pictures showing her from multiple angles. She goes by the name Corinna at femjoy.
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Download video (flv, 37 MB).
A woman with facial features similar to Corrina's, i.e., suitable to the task of increasing the likelihood of bearing a son who will grow up to look like a Greek God, but with a feminine physique or a notably more feminine physique would be difficult to come across, and if there is such a woman reading this then may the Gods bless you but you will be cursed if you don’t send your pictures to me.
This article is about a reproductive task where a feminine woman will typically be no match for a somewhat masculinized woman as far as sons go. Conversely, a somewhat masculinized woman would typically be no match for a feminine woman when it comes to bearing a daughter epitomizing feminine beauty. This is the accursed sexually antagonistic selection problem, and it has no natural solution.
feminine woman=feminine daughter
masculine woman=masculine daughter
feminine woman=feminine son
masculine woman=masculine son
FIRST of all, sorry for my bad english.
You are telling us how girls who don' fit in your "feminine" shapes are worthless and not worth being loved or to love!? that's how i get it. See, if i compare myself to your "feminine woman" i think i have feminine body, except fot the breasts which are rather small.. my face is both feminine and masculine. i have serious and loving relationship with a MAN very straight one, who of course, like every man and woman, questioned his sexual orientation once in his childhood. but he is more straight than most man i know, who fall for all those manlike supermodels you describe, he likes widw hips and full botties, he doesn' care much bout breast as long they exist and are not ugly-shaped. he gives mine his full attention.
i'm a bit of bisexual, with many homosexual experiences, maybe that's why i don't find models unattractive? because i'm bisexual? so they all should be with girls or with bisexual men?
i mean, they have features of both gendres, so they can't be good enough for straight oriented men?!
i think sexual attraction is more than that!
ofcourse it is about physichs, but it is about smell, about brains, about getting along...
i mean, you are right and agree with you when you're talking about extremes, and anorexia because of media...
but attraction and stuff.... you are blowing of self-esteem of skinny and not-so-feminine girls who can't do anyting about it while are you pumping it up for the big-boobed and wide-hipped girls.
and yes ofcourse i wish i had bigger boobs!!
but i can' be perfect, and what is perfect?
ERIK, WHAT ROUGH ESTIMATE PERCENTAGE OF WHITE WOMEN WOULD YOU SAY ARE "FEMININE"?
This is not a rhetorical question. I would really like to know your answer.
Krisa
I am sure you are attractive. Don't let this website make you question yourself. This website contains so many flaws and mistakes that I will not even try to list them here. No, this guy does not speak for most straight men; he just thinks he does.
:-)
well thank you. i'm not questioning myself. i think some other girl can question herself. just like high fashion which is telling females to be super-skinny this guy erik is also telling us to be the opposite. but someone cannot just change him/herself and his body shape only because they are told how should they look like to be attractive.
Erik is terrible just like all those gay fashion makers are.
krisa said:
You are telling us how girls who don’ fit in your “feminine” shapes are worthless and not worth being loved or to love!? that’s how i get it.
That's not how I'm reading Erik. Though maybe I interpret him differently because I've read most of his writing, and because I am a man and less likely to take it personally since this website is not about the shape of my body.
I interpreted Erik saying in this post that the woman is attractive despite having somewhat masculinized features.
In reading Erik's writings as a whole, the sense I'm getting is this:
The role of masculinization in female attractive is a matter of degree. A bit of masculinization can make a woman actually sexier than otherwise (I don't remember the link, but I'm sure Erik will provide it when he responds). But as you look at women who are more and more masculinized, there are less and less typical straight men who are attracted to them, or the men who are most attracted to them are less likely to be straight.
Erik is not saying that masculinized women "not worth being loved or to love." Rather, he is saying that less typically straight men will be attracted to them. That doesn't mean that there won't still be a decent amount of men who find them attractive, and if a particular masculinized women can find someone in that pool of men, then she has nothing to worry about.
Women with a moderate level of masculinization can still be attractive to many men, even typically straight men... they just won't be able to reach the elite levels of attractiveness to most straight men to justify having them in modeling or in beauty pageants. That is a bar that most women, feminine or not, will not reach, so no woman should feel bad that she can't reach it.
The ultimate judge of your attractiveness is what happens in your interactions with men in the real world. If you have men in your life who are into you, then you have no reason to worry about your looks. There are plenty of women, even with masculinized features, who are plenty attractive enough to find a man that they can be happy with. These women shouldn't feel bad just because, as Erik points out, they aren't at the elite level of attractiveness to most men that they should be doing fashion modeling or beauty pageants.
but attraction and stuff.... you are blowing of self-esteem of skinny and not-so-feminine girls who can’t do anyting about it while are you pumping it up for the big-boobed and wide-hipped girls.
Erik thinks in a way that is rigorous and logical, but don't quite know how to communicate his ideas in a way that is emotionally aware. That is why he was surprised, for instance, when someone like Melisande was hurt when he described her as masculinized, even while acknowledging that she was beautiful (though he seems to be becoming increasingly aware of this issue).
As I've suggested to him, it might help to have a disclaimer towards women reading the website that tells them what his ideas do and don't imply about them, their looks, and their attractiveness towards men. I know he mentions these subjects in a couple places, but I think he needs to put something from a link on the front page, with a blinking red 36pt font. Well, maybe that's a bit extreme, but you get the idea.
So wait Erik, I didn't quite catch that. Maybe I was unable to grasp your wording, but is Corinna physically feminine or not? I remember asking this question a while ago (is this your answer?).
Thanks.
Krisa: I am not concerned about bad English in the comments; my concern is with the comprehension, and those with bad English are likely to misunderstand this site. You have failed to understand this site. This site is not concerned with the worth of women or who deserves to be loved.
I am not telling models or those with models’ looks to be sexually involved with specific types of individuals.
If you go through the attractive women section, you will encounter some small-breasted women; I just added one; see the previous article. Femininity does not lie in large breasts, and I am myself not into breasts; if a woman is feminine I care not whether she has small or large breasts, and if I were forced to choose, I'd prefer medium.
This site is about brining feminine beauty to the limelight. It is not about telling women how they should look.
It is inevitable that some women will be upset by it, but most people naturally harbor feminine beauty standards and I am promoting a natural and healthy standard since it cannot be acquired by indulgence in negative health behaviors; the goal is to have more feminine women among models and beauty pageant contestants.
Your poor understanding also reflects in your posting the comment here, where I am talking about an attractive somewhat masculinized woman and arguing that she is better suited to a reproductive task compared to the typical feminine woman.
Hugh Ristik: I will consider placing a prominent link regarding self-esteem issues.
Whipped honey: You have your own definition of femininity, which makes the typical woman feminine. So why ask what proportion of women are feminine?
Physical femininity within a sex is straightforward. Regarding masculine-feminine variation as normally distributed (Gaussian distribution), women deviating from the mean would either be at the masculine or feminine side of the mean. Therefore, the upper limit of the proportion of women who will be feminine within their sex is close to 50%. Since physical features are shaped by many factors other than sex hormones, it will usually be difficult to visually rank women’s femininity if they are close, i.e., it would be difficult to separate values around the mean, around which the majority of women cluster. It should be easy to distinguish those separated by at least one standard deviation (S.D.). So it is safe to say that at least 16% of women are visually feminine within their sex. If I consider the threshold of the distinguishability to be 0.5 S.D., then about 31% of the women will be visually feminine. So basically, the proportion of women who are feminine is close to 50%, but upon visual inspection, this proportion is at least 16% and likely close to 30%.
Prasiddha: Corrina is not feminine, but she is attractive to me nevertheless.
well, no, i don't think i understand it poorly, i posted here because it was the first place i could post, and i am sorry, i know it doesn't belong here. and i'm sorry i wrote my post before i read you page more thoroughly.
look, whatever you try to promote, you cannot avoid trashing "the other side", just like the fashion world is trashing more "feminine" looking women.
some girls will definitely feel better because of your attempts to promote feminine look, but other won't, that is what i'm trying to say.
it is very good that you support your claims with scientific facts, but sometimes you are to subjective. like here: http://www.femininebeauty.info/sexy.fashionmodels.1.htm
you're comments are sometimes even insulting.
and when you response to our comments you can be a bit insulting,too, but i understand that since some people attack so harshly and are insulting themselves :>
And one more thing.
If media and commercials are showing us thin girls, women will pinch themselves in their hips and stomach and thighs wishing they were smaller.
If more feminine girls were shown in commercials, all other women would look their non-feminine parts in a mirror, wishing they had bigger boobs, smaller waist, wider hips.
If a very feminine looking girl falls in love with a boy from her neighborhood and that boy prefers thinner girls, she will wish she was thinner and even though the feminine girl might be more popular amongst other boys than all the thin girls that this boy (she felt in love with) ever went out with.
Simple.
That's how live goes.
And yes we (all of us) are very unfortunate that we live in a time where media is raping us with anorexic, masculine looking women with breast implants.
But i hope that times will change.
Like it did when
shoulder paddings,
corsets,
white socks,
crinolines
and some other fashion disasters were popular.
I think all over our history there were all kinds of women represented as beautiful,
obese,
small breasted,
pale,
tanned,
small,
tall,
black,
blonde,
big breasted,
wide hipped
...
And i think anorexic looking women are less popular and less often presented in media than they were 5-10 years ago.
i think things are getting better already.
because corsets were unhealthy
an being anorexic is unhealthy,too
just like being obese-
wearing high heels can have negative results in health,too,
but it is sexy as hell
isn't it?
ERIK, WHAT ROUGH ESTIMATE PERCENTAGE OF WHITE MEN WOULD YOU SAY ARE "MASCULINE"?
Just trying to get your whole picture.
I think you should also address the issue as to what sort of male it takes to produce a feminine woman.
this website is so worthless, whats the point, telling people what is feminine or what isnt, you know what, im gonna make my own website about what is musculine? a guy having 10 inch penis, having a six pack, being taller than 5"10 , and having a nice chunck of change. if you dont fit in with these description , than you arent musculine at all!
Erik : I have seen a girl from half caucasian and native american Indian from the north of canada looks nordic ( completely platinum blonde hair and blue eyes) than your models above. I wanted to show her picture to u but afraid her mom will not like that.
A son who looked like a Greek god could father any amount of children. The most attractive daughter would be far more limited, however for much of evolutionary time in northern Europe men died off; being around as a live provider was a big selling point while the women had to look special to get a mate. This might lead one to think that the looks of men in northern Europe have been far less important than that of women until very recent times http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2008/03/questions-on-polygyny-and-changi...
The risk of having a plain daughter would have outweighed the benifits of a greek god son (doesn't hold true for a polygamous society) The article does not seem to take into account the tendency for offspring to favour the father's looks and physical size -Insulin Like Growth Factor 2 - over the mother, (who contributes the personality mainly).
Mothers can compensate for the fathers looks to a lesser extent than the article suggests.
If I remember rightly genes for physical size are only properly expressed if they come from the father, eg the father may be small but he can pass on his unexpressed genes to make his son (or daughter) large. If the height of the mother is not fully reflected in the son it might explain lack of interest in a womans height
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