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The skinny on the general public vs. the fashion industry

Jen Hunter, Marianne Berglund

The woman on the left is 5-foot-10.5, 154-pound Jen Hunter and the other woman is 5-foot-10, 112-pound Marianne Berglund.

Both women were contestants and final-four finalists in a recent U.K. reality TV show, “Make me a supermodel.”  The prize was a modeling contract with Select modeling agency and a spread in either Glamour or GQ magazine.

If the general public were asked to pick the more aesthetically pleasing between these two women, the overwhelming vote will be for Jen Hunter, though most would agree that a woman deserving of a supermodel designation should look better than her, and Jen Hunter did indeed win the public vote, but was outcompeted by two men, one of whom won the top prize.

Anyway, here are the interesting comments:

When it came to the final four, the Panel of judges, mostly comprising of people from the fashion world, said that Jen Hunter looked great and Marianne Berglund looked breathtaking and sensational!  Comment: Whose idea of a breathtaking and sensational woman is one who looks like a boy in his early adolescence?

Jen Hunter was reduced to tears when she was castigated on the reality TV show for not taking a food and exercise regime seriously.

Jen Hunter was criticized by Judge Tandy Anderson, managing director of Select Model Management, for having “stocky legs.”

Rachel Hunter, another Judge, reprimanded Jen for saying she wanted to prove larger women could be successful models.

When Marianne Berglund was the first person to be eliminated from the final four, the judging panel was shocked, but Rachel Hunter told Marianne that it was she among the final four who was the supermodel material.  Comment: One wonders to what extent the judging panel worked toward making sure that Jen Hunter does not win or else they will be stuck with her as a model for the time period of the contract.

One look at the boyish physique of Marianne Berglund and the face of Rachel Hunter, which looks like that of a male transvestite, should explain why there is a notable discord between the preferences of the fashion world and that of the general public: the fashion world is dominated by male homosexuals but the general public mostly comprises of exclusively heterosexual individuals.

Unless the homosexual influence becomes widely known, the negative impact of skinny fashion models will not be lessened.  Following the death of 22-year-old fashion model Luisel Ramos, who died of heart failure on August 2, 2006, after walking the runway during a fashion show in Uruguay, authorities in Madrid banned models below a BMI of 18 during the September 2006 fashion week.

5-foot-9 Luisel Ramos weighed 98 pounds at the time of her death.  She starved herself over a period of months after being told that she could be an international sensation if she lost weight.

As one would expect, notwithstanding the rare example of Giorgio Armani voluntarily agreeing not to use size zero (U.S.) models, the Madrid ban prompted a fashion-industry backlash.  Some comments by Didier Grumbach, head of the Chambre Syndicale, the body that governs French fashion, provide useful insight (my comments are in italics):

Grumbach said that it is not the role of fashion to solve public health problems. Right, but only if the problems are not caused by the fashion world.

Grumbach: "I think it's a non-issue. You don't solve public health problems by regulating the size of models," he says. "You know, fashion is only the reflection of what is happening in society. It is not the cause."  Who is Grumbach trying to kid? The general public overwhelmingly finds the typical skinniness of high-fashion models socially unacceptable.  The general public also strongly and overwhelmingly aesthetically prefers above average femininity in the looks of women; manly women like Rachel Hunter wouldn’t even be considered for modeling, let alone end up as supermodels, if the looks of high-fashion models reflected societal preferences.

France's health ministry recently announced it was setting up a working group on body image, with the aim of establishing a charter with advertisers banning the use of excessively thin models. Grumbach says he does not plan to take part in the government talks.  Why am I not surprised?

"I honestly think we are not responsible for health problems," he says. "Let the health ministry take care of health problems, and let fashion designers choose models according to their taste."  How is the health ministry supposed to take care of a health problem that is caused by the fashion industry if the fashion industry does not cooperate?  There is a large body of evidence relating unnecessary dieting on the part of many women on fashion imagery (see the "eating disorders" page), and case studies of anorexia patients clearly implicate the high status of skinny high-fashion models as a factor involved in pushing women at risk for anorexia toward anorexia.  Besides, I am pleased to see Grumbach use the phrase “let fashion designers choose models according to their taste.”        

In November, 2006, another fashion model, 21-year-old Ana Carolina Reston, died of infection/kidney failure following prolonged subsistence on apples and tomatoes.  At 5-foot-8, she weighed 88 pounds at the time of her death.  I previously addressed a comment by Gisele Bundchen who made it look like starving fashion models themselves were to blame for not eating enough.  The latter is easy to say for a big-name fashion model who can afford to eat normally, gain weight compared to her early years when she was in the process of making it big among fashion models and still manage to get numerous modeling assignments, but for the less famous high-fashion models, it is a question of complying with the preferences of fashion designers or losing their job.

The fashion industry is not going to change voluntarily.  The deaths are extreme examples, but starvation-related suffering on the part of a number of high-fashion models is undoubtedly much more common.  Ideally, fashion designers should be free to use models in accordance with their preferences, but when their selections create too many problems for high-fashion models and others, authorities have no choice but to intervene.   

One possibility is to ban adult (18-plus) models below a BMI of 18.5 from the runway unless a medical examination finds them to be healthy.  A brief explanation of BMI is relevant here. 

BMI or Body Mass Index is the weight in kilograms divided by the square of the height in meters.  BMI is a useful epidemiological tool in large studies where it is not feasible to measure the percentage body fat of every individual.  The idea is to make an inference about percentage body fat from height and weight measurements for a given ethnic group based on previous studies where variation in actual body fat levels was assessed as a function of height and weight.  The ethnicity-specific norms can then be used to suggest rough cutoffs for unhealthy and healthy levels of body fat at the population level.  Whereas a given individual may not be compliant with these cutoffs, most people in a given ethnic group will be.

For whites, a BMI cutoff of 18.5 is the [population norm for 18-plus individuals] threshold for too low body fat vs. a normal and healthy level of body fat.  This cutoff will be lower for younger individuals and populations with less lean body mass per unit height compared to whites.  The following table provides the weights for a given height that correspond to a BMI of 18.5.

Weight correponding to a BMI cutoff of 18.5, rounded to the nearest integer
Height 5-8 5-9 5-10 5-11 6-0 6-1 6-2
Weight (kg) 55 57 59 60 62 64 65
Weight (pounds) 122 125 129 133 136 140 144

The weight cutoffs above are clearly higher than the average weight of high-fashion models.  Table 1 on the “eating disorders” page lists the average BMI of fashion models (mostly white) from a particular modeling agency in the mid-1990s as 17.57 (a weight of 122 pounds corresponding to a height of approximately 5-foot-10), which is the threshold for sub-normal body fat levels for 16-year-olds.  Current high-fashion models have a BMI in the neighborhood of 16.  With a BMI cutoff of 18.5 for adults or an age-appropriate BMI cutoff, the majority of fashion models will be rejected from the runway unless they provide medical proof of being healthy.  This proof will have to be recent, the evaluation by health authorities-appointed physicians being less than two weeks before the show.  In addition, fashion models marked as below the BMI threshold will need to randomly submit to a blood test 1-3 days before the show so that their blood can be examined for electrolytes, protein content, ketone bodies, etc. in order to determine whether they are starving.

Fashion designers and their apologists often claim that many high-fashion models are naturally very skinny, and setting up a BMI cutoff would deprive these women of their modeling job.  A naturally very skinny person should eat ad libitum, i.e., in accordance with desire, and remain very skinny.  If indeed, many high-fashion models are naturally very skinny, then a medical examination of them shortly before a fashion show should reveal them to be in good health and exhibiting normal dietary practices.  If these naturally very skinny women are found to be in poor health, then the examining physicians can recommend healthful practices and other remedial measures.  In other words, fashion designers should have no reason to oppose the 18.5-BMI-cutoff-unless-the-lighter-fashion-model-is-deemed-medically-healthy rule.

However, fashion designers will obviously attempt to defeat this measure by any means necessary.  Fashion insiders know fully well, just as a visual examination of high-fashion models during a fashion show will reveal, that many of them are unnaturally skinny, i.e., achieve their skinniness via starvation, obviously to comply with the requirements set forth by fashion designers.  This issue needs to be brought to the limelight, and it will be if authorities hell-bent on forcing the BMI cutoff clash with a desperate fashion industry.

The focus then will be on why fashion designers insist on super-skinny looks among their models when the great majority of people find it socially unacceptable.  The answer obviously is that without the skinniness and other elements of the looks of high-fashion models such as masculinization and youth, they will fail to closely approximate the appearance of boys in their early adolescence, which would displease the homosexual men who dominate the fashion business.  This fact, if widely known, will build sufficient public pressure for health authorities to force a BMI cutoff for the sake of high-fashion models and also to minimize the negative impact of skinny high-fashion models on girls/women at risk for developing anorexia.

Case studies of female anorexia patients too often reveal thought processes along the lines of “if I could be more perfect, my problems would go away,” which prompts these women to seek perfect standards to emulate, which they conveniently find in the supposedly "perfect" looks of high-fashion models.  Women at risk for anorexia surely need to understand whose idea of perfection is the typical body [non-overweight] of a boy in his early adolescence.  Of course, the promotion of feminine beauty, which is the goal of this site, will help undermine the high status of skinny high-fashion models.  Some may point out that the promotion of feminine beauty standards will prompt a different type of problem in so far as emulating them goes, but it is easy to show that if a narrow range of women's looks is to be promoted, the least harm and greatest benefit will be associated with the promotion of feminine beauty, and this is a topic that will be thoroughly discussed in a future entry though it has been addressed in brief already.



just a note---luisel and the other models tht died did not work in europe/america for major fashion assignments. in fact, one of the girls was sent back for beuing too small. they want women with particular measurements--not as thin as possible.

also when one looks into how bmi charts were determined in relaion to health----one sees this is a rough estimate. these studies took place in third world countries often---were people had rough lives. they needed more weight on them . additionally, the avg runway model is still an adolescent--so adult weight guidelines do not apply. many come from areas known for lankier populations----eastern europe, holland, east africa, certain latin american countries.

While I agree with most of what you say on this site, I think you could get your point across without all the homophobia.

It is very narrow minded to assume that a homosexual man could not appreciate a feminine body in an esthetic sense. You do not need to be sexually attracted to a person to find them beautiful. Case in point: I think my children are beautiful. Also, I'm 100% heterosexual, but I know and appreciate a good looking woman when I see one (and heterosexual men, though they wish to deny it, can tell if other men are good looking). If it were all about designers being gay pedophiles, why don't the male models look like adolescents?

The fashion industry is largely dominated by gay men, this is true, but not exclusively. Tommy Hilfiger(sp?) is straight and if his daughter's mother looks anything like she does then Mr. Hilfiger obvoisly has a taste for the more average, curvy, shorter woman. Coco Chanel is obviously not a gay man, nor is she ultra skinny and masculine looking.
These people still use super-skinny fashion models though. Why? I'm not sure, but I have a theory.

Super skinny and tall women are rare. Rare means exclusive. Designers don't want 'just anybody' buying their clothing (this is why it is so expensive). They want only the rich and the powerful donning thier duds. Using the exclusive skinny model is a way of emphasizing that visually. Runway models are statistical outliers in about every way physically. They are excessively tall and thin. Their hip to waist ratios may be elevated compared to your (ahem) glamour models, but they are still much more feminine than most women would be with that amount of body fat, to quote Nancy Etcoff "they are statistical rarities who can combine long lean bodies with curves". (you could find much more masculine figures on any women's pro basketball team, for example). They do tend to have robust facial features, and while they may be androgynous, they are none the less striking. Their facial symmetry and harmony are ususally impeccable. I theorize that robust features can make an ultra skinny model appear more healthy than she actually is (high cheekbones hide sunken eyes, robust jaws hide sunken cheeks, robust features will lend a smooth taughtness to the skin even if it's a bit dehyrated/strained from excessive dieting)

I don't think that robust features should be banned from the fashion world. After all, models do not exist to give men a perpetual hard-on. Tall, handsome women should have their place(but they do need to gain weight). After all, heterosexual men still run basically everything, do they have to run the fashion world too??

(By the way, I'm neither tall, skinny nor masculine. Facially, I look much more like your glamour models, which has caused problems because everyone thinks I'm 'cute' and people are not inclined to take me seriously.)

Kristin: So what if Luisel Ramos and Ana Carolina Reston were not working in Europe or America? They were of European ancestry, and were undoubtedly inspired toward thinness in the hope of becoming internationally well-recognized. Luisel’s sister, Eliana, also a fashion model, died six months after Luisel because of undernutrition. Who was sent back for being too thin?

Regarding the BMI classifications, they are based on 18-plus Europeans, not people in developing nations. A substantial proportion of high-fashion models are 18-plus. It is true that the BMI cutoffs for those less than 18 and people with less lean body mass per unit height than Europeans (e.g., East Africans) would be lower, but not by a large amount. For a 16-year-old girl, the medical threshold for a low BMI would be 17.5 as opposed to 18.5 for an adult, and the corresponding threshold weights would be about 7 pounds less than in the chart above. Anyway, the proposition is that all models with a BMI less than 18.5 should have a medical bill of health, and this would translate to just about every less-than-18 fashion model needing a medical exam, which is desirable.

Ana: What homophobia is espoused here? Regardless of whether homosexual men are capable of aesthetically appreciating a feminine body, those among them who happen to be fashion designers typically do not want their female models to look feminine; their appreciation for the looks of boys in their early adolescence is obviously greater. Heterosexual men will typically not be in denial when they encounter men better looking than them. Nobody is saying that designers are gay pedophiles; it is more like there being a lot of men with pederastic interests among top fashion designers. Pedophiles are attracted to pre-pubescents, whereas pederasts’ preferences range from pre-pubescents to teenagers. Why doesn’t the typical male fashion model look like an adolescent boy? Do you believe that the homosexuals could get away with it? They obviously wouldn’t, but from the perspective of heterosexual men, there are numerous effeminate male fashion models around.

Nobody is saying that all major individuals in the fashion industry are homosexuals, but the homosexuals dominate, as you have acknowledged, which means that the heterosexuals have to comply with the status quo, i.e., have to use very skinny fashion models.

I agree that tall and very skinny women are rare, but tall, feminine and very attractive women are rarer still. I have provided numerous arguments against your notion that the fashion model look is selected based on its rarity and exclusivity here, specifically under the headings Artistic considerations and a need for unconventionality and Elite adopting style that others cannot afford. I am not sure what you mean by high-fashion models combining long, lean bodies with curves, since this is by no means the norm among high-fashion models. It is not appropriate to compare high-fashion models to female athletes that need to have above average masculinization to be successful in their sport. There is no such need among fashion models unless you are looking at the issue from the aesthetic preferences of gay fashion designers.

Regarding the symmetry of fashion models’ faces, there are plenty of very symmetrical feminine and attractive women around. It is not the case that above average masculinization is required in women for greater facial symmetry.

The arguments here are not about banning robust/masculine models from fashion modeling. As long as the fashion industry complies with minimum weight guidelines for health or provides medical proof of health for models below the threshold weight for their height, it can use any kind of women it wants. However, the lack of mainstream appreciation of feminine beauty in contemporary Western culture is largely due to the gay domination of the fashion business, and if things are to change outside the fashion world then educating the public is the minimum effort required, which is what this site is about.

the ;oint is that one was actually sent home from europe cuz armani refused to work with her. those girls were lower tier models...and were not high-fashion.

Kristin: The women were involved in high-fashion modeling, and on their way to greater skinniness in order to make themselves more appealing to fashion designers and end up as first-tier models.

Who was sent back because Armani refused to hire her? Armani is an outlier. After the Madrid ban on ultra skinny models, Armani voluntarily agreed to stop using size zero models, at odds with most others.

a size zero model is 34-24-34----that is all. it is called a size zero in america cuz women are so big in the states, they had to encorporate vanity sizing... also most size zero models are about 1115-130, not 90 lbs.
i can't bewlive you would call someone an ou right liar, when you have no idea what weight corresponds with that size... furthermore, i know an armani model. she is skinny, adorable but boyish---but she does eat. she is an ex dancer who is 120 of solid muscle.

also none of the women were in high fashion modeling that died--- no evidence of it. some bikini shows and shoots in brazi8l DON'T COUNT. if they were on that track , their agents would have sent them to fashion week--- that did not happen. until girls drop dead in paris, this is all irrelevant. these girls could have been troubled--as anorexia stems from serious trauma and depression, not simply too-skinny models.
at this point, i think you hate admitting when your conclusion was not 100 percent accurate. i could name dozens of south american women who were in high fashion--- all weighed over 100 pounds. point blank.

Kristin: You need to learn to distinguish between an “outlier” and an “outright liar”; I called Armani an “outlier.” I didn’t say anything about how much size zero models weigh, and don’t see the point of a number of your comments...talking about South American high-fashion models weighing over 100 pounds, etc. What does it matter why size zero is referred to as such?

See this picture of one Ramos sister who died, showing her doing high-fashion modeling. A fashion model need not die in Paris for it to be relevant. Pressures to strictly comply with the norms are stronger for beginning/struggling/not well-established models; the more well-established ones can get away with some deviations from the norm. You still haven’t told me who was turned away by Armani for being too skinny.

Anorexia stems from serious “trauma and depression, not simply too-skinny models”? What is this? Trauma and depression are correlates of anorexia. The evidence cited implicates exposure to skinny fashion models as one of the factors driving some women toward anorexia, and a number of high-fashion models are forced to practice dietary restraint in order to maintain skinny physiques as part of their job requirements.

ana carolina reston was turned away. the point was that many women are close to a size zero---cuz it isn't even that small. the average woman was a modern size zero, but was much shorter. secondly--- just because in mexico farmers fertilize the ground with human feces, doesn't mean the same thing is done in amsterdam---get the picture?? luisel doing some d-rate show in uruguay does not connect her to high-fashion . that term implies exclusivity and a certain aesthetic/professional standard not seen in the shows she was a part of. simply put not all fashion is high-fashion.

also, since the avg runway model is 16, wy not show bvmi recommendations for that age group vs adult females? there is evidence that is appropriate to your argument, but this isn't it. these models are about as applicable as those in your 'attractive women' section.

Kristin: Luisel Ramos was doing D-rate shows in Uruguay? Luisel’s death occurred shortly after she stepped off the runway at a fashion show during Uruguay’s Fashion week in Montevideo, its capital and largest city. In other words, Luisel worked as a high-fashion model at the top level in Uruguay, i.e., was connected to high-fashion. She was prompted to become skinnier in order to make it big internationally. A top-ranked fashion show in Montevideo does not have the same prestige as its counterpart in Milan, but it is high-fashion nevertheless.

Ana Carolina Reston was signed up with Ford modeling agency and later Elite modeling agency in Brazil, modeled in many countries, and even modeled for Armani and Dior (evidence). If Armani turned her away for being too skinny, I have not been able to find this information, but the aforementioned link mentions fashion people calling her too fat, which was what prompted her dieting and subsequent death from malnutrition. If shortly before her death, she was horribly skinny and sickly-looking, even by the fashion industry’s standards, and unable to model, then the industry is still to blame for pressuring her to be skinnier when she weighed 8 stone, and doesn’t deserve any credit for turning away a sick-looking woman. Anyway, Ms. Reston was clearly connected to high-fashion, too.

Therefore, it is ludicrous for you to say that the dead models, i.e., Ramos and Reston, “are about as applicable as those in your ‘attractive women’ section.”

I have already mentioned that the BMI cutoff for underweight for a 16-year-old is about 17.5, and the corresponding weight thresholds would be about 7 pounds less in the table above. Still, since plenty of models are 18-plus, a general cutoff of 18.5 unless there is medical proof of health if the model has a lower BMI is reasonable, and if it sends just about every less-than-18 model to a doctor for a health examination, then this is something that should be done anyway.

maybe ana carolina reston. one point to add is she lost weight over her career. consequently, in the beginning she was bigger. ---but there is no high-fashion in uruguay. brazil hardly has any---- that is like saying there is high-fashion in tulsa. no go. also most successful runway models are 14-17. agencies scout them when they are 12. they discourage older models. why not actually contact and talk to various people in the industry---that would add meat to your posts.

Kristin: No high-fashion in Uruguay? This is just nonsense. You may attempt to use your idiosyncratic definition of high-fashion modeling to include only the regions where the top-ranked designers mostly reside, i.e. New York, Paris, Milan, etc., but it is clear that you are beating a dead horse. The fashion industry cannot be absolved of blame because the show that was part of Fashion Week in Uruguay was supposedly not about high-fashion. What in the world was it about?

Regarding Luisel’s age, it is true that a 22-year-old woman who is attempting to start her career as a high-fashion model will most likely be rejected. However, fashion models who are well-established in their teens can easily be found doing high-fashion modeling in their early twenties. Luisel started fashion modeling (on the runway) when she was 18, which would be older than many others, but not too old. Luisel’s sister, Eliana, was 18 when she died...well-within the teenage range most high-fashion models are found in, and Eliana was better established than Luisel; Eliana had been modeling regularly in Argentina.

I have already pointed out that fashion designers generally have a preference for girls in their mid-teens for fashion modeling purposes. You must make an effort to properly read and understand the arguments here prior to commenting and not assume that I know nothing about the fashion world.

Ana Carolina Reston alone shows your criticism to be lacking and flawed. How she lost weight is not relevant to the discussion; what made her lose weight is relevant, and the factor responsible is industry pressure. Ms. Reston was never overweight (big) in a medical sense by a long shot. She started out young, and her slimness made it possible, but the abnormal aesthetic preferences of gay fashion designers meant that she had to be skinnier still in order to end up highly ranked among high-fashion models.

Eeew, they say Marianne Berglund is "breathtaking and sensational?" Maybe she does take your breath away - when you see her and gasp at how sickly she looks!

Jen Hunter looks waaaay better. She kind of reminds me of Marilyn Monroe.

I don't even know where to begin or where to post this. This site is filled with circular logic and ludicrous assumptions. No matter how you attempt to shroud your narrow minded pre-determinations that “life time heterosexual males” generally prefer more feminine women, it doesn’t change the fact that its all a bunch of bullshit. It must have taken a lot of time, and I commend you for that, but the rest of this site screams either “I’m a guy who fears my own latent homosexuality so I’m going to make a site whose motto is ‘agree with me or you’re gay’” or “I’m a girl who is a little chunky with low self esteem so I’m going to make a site that says ‘real men love women like me’” Either way it’s a waste of time. In your FAQ, you address this specific question but do nothing to answer it. Instead of defending your position you just point fingers at the fashion industry and say “they are worse, bunch of gays trying to force their man-women on us” Yeah, the fashion industry promotes an unrealistic image of female attractiveness. We get it. That’s been out there for a while. It’s not a surprise. You are not clever. What is your solution? Do we tell women “Hey, its ok. Everyone is beautiful in their own way and its important to be healthy”? No. You tell them that there is an actual objective standard of beauty. Its different, but you probably can’t live up to that either and anyone who finds you attractive is probably just a repressed fag. Good job dipshit. You are out helping the world. Your objectivity is subjective bullshit. Go see a shrink, loser.

Appalled: You have not identified any instance of circular logic being used here. What is narrow-minded about lifetime-exclusive heterosexual men preferring feminine women? What would be the point of being heterosexual if heterosexuality made one attracted to physical characteristics closer to the same sex? You need to examine your own logic. Why would a man in fear of his latent homosexuality go through the trouble of creating this site? If a woman created this site to say “real men love women like me,” then this woman would be feminine and attractive, and would be attracting a lot of male attention to start with. How many such women in your estimation would have low self-esteem related to their body?

As far as the solutions to the problems that this site is tackling go, read the solutions page. Telling women that everyone is beautiful in their own way will not help; most people know better, and women at-risk for developing anorexia will generally not be convinced by this statement because they see skinny fashion models making a huge amount of money and having their pictures splashed all over. If there are objective beauty standards that correspond to health, then it is necessary to describe them in some detail to undermine the negative effects of skinny fashion models. Note that negative health behaviors will detract from feminine beauty, not lead to it.

People already know that it is important to be healthy, and health does not correspond to skinniness or obesity, i.e., one cannot simultaneously say that everyone is beautiful in their own way, which would imply that one should accept oneself, and also that one should be healthy, which would imply that those with a body fat level outside the healthy range should do something about it.

The argument here is surely not that men attracted to women who are not examples of feminine beauty are repressed homosexuals. There are feminine women who are not examples of feminine beauty. There are also plenty of women who are neither feminine nor masculine for a woman, but somewhere in the middle. Slight masculinization is even a correlate of the sexiness of women to heterosexual men. However, it should be clear that masculinized women are disproportionately at risk for attracting men who are not lifetime-exclusive heterosexual.

at first, your site intrigued me, i tried to find room to agree--but your blatant lack of knowledge of the industry, refusal to see the truth smacking you in the face, and muddling good information with personal bias while parading it around as 'expert opinions'--- quite frankly i feel sad for any woman who would email pics of themselves--asking if Erik things they are feminine? are the daft???? there is not one representitive from the industry you relentlessly are criticizing---- and i am sorry---but you really know just a smidge more than the general public (which knows nothing).

don't worry , i won't clog up your sight further trying to challenge the deeply embedded beliefs of a loud but uninformed mouth.

Kristin: I am pleased to know that you will not be commenting here anymore. Of all people leaving comments here, yours have been the most incoherent, the least informed and a “delight” to read with respect to grammar and spelling. You could be excused if English were not your native language, but I doubt this, and I am nowhere as bad as you even though English is not my native language. Besides, your comment beginning, "your blatant lack of..." is an accurate description of yourself.

hi, i was doing a search, "gay designers; fear curvy women"

Wow, Erik, your answers to comments are pretty belligerent.
I think that Appalled is referring to the fact that you are making assumptions about the preferences of all heterosexual males that you don't fully uncover and explain. Perhaps many men are attracted to thinness, tallness, androgyny, or have various preferences. Are you the representative of men across the planet? I remember making a theory about male standards being more uniform than female ones because I thought females have more secondary sex characteristics which my Cultural Studies teacher criticized for being specific to western ideals.
Also, I think that it is harder to say with certainty where these fashion standards are coming from and whether they in fact do come from gay men. Do you know who the tastemakers are? It's hard to uncover the think tank of fashion. Gay fashion industry is a simplifying, overarching term like "liberal media." I am certain that body measurement standards are the way they are because the dictated body type complements the couture clothing better. There is a reason a model is often called a clotheshorse.
I think that the photo of Marianne Berglund is well chosen to malign the fashion industry with. It is completely unflattering, her bones stick out like those of a Holocaust victim, and she almost has a camel toe. It is extreme. Shots of actual high fashion models often afford them more curves than that like this
or this
picture of Natalia Vodianova. or Filippa Hamilton:

Haute couture fashion models are chosen for their facial features, fitting the prescribed height and body measurements is a requirement. The trend is for the face to be interesting or exotic as in the case of Gemma Ward (who I think looks like an alien) and Alek Wek. Sometimes a big long nose like in Carolina Kurkova's face is what makes it memorable. The standard is different than for face/makeup models who I believe are chosen for their more regular features,
Marianne Berglund represents the fashion trend of androgyny and is sort of ripping off Twiggy with her pixie like look on the picture. Some fashion houses like Prada tend more toward using androgyny I think, while in Calvin Klein ads, Natalia Vodianova's femininity (long hair, exposed breasts, lying on top of a large man) is emphasized. You have to take that into account too.

I think that Victoria's Secret, Maxim, and Playboy represent male preferences better, but the women on their covers are still toned though they have a more easily identifiable hourglass figure and are of average height. They are also predominantly actresses and not haute couture models. I think that women get their beauty standards more from actresses than from models (especially haute couture models) because they proliferate various types of media from tabloids to entertainment television. Or else the idea of being thin while having big breasts or implants is a non-issue.

On a sidenote, this post on Jennifer Love Hewitt and the comments attached to it disgust me:

d: I am not merely making assumptions about the preferences of most heterosexual men, but backing it up with plenty of data (a better resource coming soon). Your doubts about the factors responsible for the typical looks of high-fashion models are extensively addressed here.

Do not confound actual body shape with how posing can alter it. Natalia Vodianova isn’t even close to feminine. Of course, high-fashion models need to fit certain looks requirements, but what factors are responsible for these requirements (see answer at second link from top above)? High-fashion models do not look like each other’s clones; there is variation among them, but the central tendency among them is clear notwithstanding some outliers.

You are mistaken about both Victoria’s Secret and Playboy representing the interests of heterosexual men though Playboy centerfolds are closer. Whereas a number of girls and women are inspired by actresses, actresses are chosen for a variety of factors apart from looks, whereas models are chosen for their looks. Actresses themselves are influenced by the looks of high-fashion models since these models occupy the top rung among models. Therefore, some influence of actresses is an indirect influence of high-fashion models.

statistics, polls, bah humbug, sit down a group of men in a bar, a church, an office, talk to them. These woman hating designers will be all for muslim's female genital mutilation. They alaready have women wearing short hair, ask any man, we hate short hair on a woman, guys have short hair, women's have longer, duh. At least covering their ears. In any other field, women would be screaming that men don't understand women, we need women clothes designers. Not freak cross-dressers. DEMAND WOMEN CLOTHES DESIGNERS. Boycott "gay" ones, what do they know about women? and Women designers should have REAL MEN around to approve. That's why REAL WOMEN buy clothes, to get the guy, duh. God, we americans have gotten so naive and stupid. BACK TO BASICS, END THE FREAK SHOW. Make clothes to last.

The model on the left is a little bit too fat or chunky, look at her legs, ugh. And the one on the left is far too thin.

Women need more MUSCLE TONE high protein/low fat diet and exercise.
Victoria's secret models, they are what what women should aim to look like.

I actually think the anorexic one looks better. o_O
My opinion.

What's with the twisted minds on our ideas of beauty? I really don't understand. How can a bonny hungry looking girl look better? I just hope we'll be able to lose this anorexia stereotype as the ultimate icon for beauty, it's sick and it can have tragic influences on young girls. Fashion designer should check an eating disorder rehab, this might help them reconsider their ideas on beauty.

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