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Guinevere: attractive slender nude

This post features a slender, somewhat masculinized woman who is nevertheless a lot more sexually appealing to heterosexual men than the typical fashion model. She goes by the pseudonym Guinevere or Melisande.

Melisande from Little Mutt
Guinevere from Ron Harris Archives

Picture sources: Guinevere from Ron Harris Archives and Melisande from Little Mutt. Little Mutt also features a lesbian scene of Melisande with Carli (shown below).

Carli from Little Mutt



send sex and your imaje for me .kiss you


send me Guinevere's sex pictures

What do you mean I'm masculinized? I'm the most girly girl I know!!! you people are weird...

Melisande: I don’t know whether you are the woman shown above, but will speak as if you are. If you go through the “feminine vs. masculine” page and also the attractive women section, you will realize that your physical appearance is somewhat masculinized. However, you should not take this as a negative. You are filed under “attractive women” here, and as you very well know, you are a popular nude model. This entry is supposed to be obscure, but attracts many hits. Your level of masculinization is typically not an aesthetic problem from the perspective of heterosexual men; after all, some level of masculinization is a correlate of sexiness. If anything, you should be more concerned about body fat level. In some of your pictures, you are on the skinny side of what most heterosexual men prefer. You may be more “girly” than others you know, especially if they happen to be mostly nude models, strippers and women appearing in adult movies since such women are disproportionately masculinized women, but you are not describable as feminine-looking. Once again, this should cause no offense; you know that you are attractive, and not only do I not dispute this, I have provided plenty of anthropological data here to justify the attractiveness designation.

y are sluts and porn stars the only women you find attractive?

J: Looks matter to this site, not the behavior or morals of the women shown. To illustrate correlates of physical attractiveness, it is necessary to show women in a minimal state of dress, and there are few alternatives currently other than using mostly nude models for illustrative purposes. As a side note, whereas Melisande above has done some porn work, Carli and the vast majority of women in the attractive women section are not involved in porn.

I'm sure a library could be filled with books on gender stereotypes and the cognition of gender.

Very thin females are masculine only in the sense that adolescent boys are masculine. The point being that adolescent males are typically seen as feminine. Yes, it's all very confusing. To me the primary impression of very thin females is youth. The ultra thin model ideal is firstly I believe driven by an aesthetic driven by the appeal of youth.

As to Melisande (sic?) I've seen a video with her hip bones protruding and ribs obvious. Something often occurring in pubescent girls and boys. The sexual appeal I admit to me is strong. I have no clue why. Obviously I am not alone. Conditioned by popular culture? I don't know.

Someone: I don't see the point of your mentioning "gender stereotypes" and "cognition of gender." Behavior/personality are not being addressed here.

No one is saying that very thin females are masculine. Melisande's masculinization is obvious in her skeletal proportions. Here is an example of a very thin woman that cannot be described as masculine.

To say that the ultra thin model ideal in the fashion world is driven by the aesthetic appeal of youth is to be very incomplete; the complete version is that it is driven by the aesthetic appeal of boys in their early adolescence to male homosexual fashion designers.

I have avoided posting pictures of Melisande where she is skinny. Whereas you may like her skinny self and are not alone, most people don't prefer skinny looks.

dammit...the skinny topic again. BTW, although no one has brought it up, contrary to popular belief, I do not have an eating disorder, nor do I do drugs. I'm am one of the unfortunate girls who will probably always have a body like a 12 year old. If anyone has any tips on gaining weight/muscle for girls, feel free to share...I seem to find it impossible...and I'm sick of being called anorexic, or a druggie, it's annoying, and depressing to say the least. And a huge thnks to the pple on this page for not going there btw :-)

Yeah, "masculinized" is an awfully unappealing term for such a gorgeous girl. I found this page because I caught Melisande in a video and was looking for anything else I could find of her. She is the most beautiful model I've seen in years, and there ain't nothing masculine about her.

And Melisande, if you read this ... your body is not "unfortunate"! Don't change a thing. You don't look anorexic or drug-addled. You look healthy, lean and gorgeous. Perfect, IMHO. And with a lovely, open, charming face as well.

Okay, slipping out of fanboy mode now. But it needed to be said.

I agree melisande, your bod is great, the sterotypical plastic women with the big rack are overdone. Do you have a personal or professional site, or somewhere you can be contacted by email? I'd really like to use a gal for a photo shoot, a different style of softer porn.


She's disgusting! She doesn't belong in any attractive woman section. She would make a terrible model and she needs to use a bleach pen to get rid of the pock marks on her ass.

Danielle: Tell that to her legion of heterosexual male fans. This also doesn’t happen to be part of an attractive women section; the “attractive women” label is a tag for the blog.

hi melisande, guinevere, and your other common names and everyone who replies/reads this post

before reviewing peer comments such as those above, i have never seen you from a "male" perspective. i am a straight guy. after reading someone's post above, i still can't see anything masculine about your work. i have quite a collection of your pieces and must say you've done quite a good job. the biggest factor that attributes to being of fan of yours is really your face.

symmetry is beauty as many will say. with slender body types and smaller structure, symmetry is easily achieved. that would probably be my explanation to why i, and many other heterosexual men would consider her a beauty.

the slender/slim figure equatable to a young boy is not applicable to guinevere/melisande imo.


Eric, you are rather lazy for someone who so badly wants to convince people that his opinion is fact. You can surely do much better than that Eric. Guinevere is pathetic. She really is. I don't give a shit about all of her fan (Eric Holland). "They" all have shitty taste but that's ok lots of people have shitty taste. There is no shortage of bad taste and stupidity in this world. I urge you to find some better examples of slender skinny-waisted models. These girls are infinitely more attractive than Guinevere (imo) and they are not even all that great. They are also thin enough and have unique enough features to be models. If you polled your beloved straight, white men on who they found more attractive then these girls would beat Guinevere by a landslide.

Pania Rose

Reka Ebergenyi

Michelle Buswell

Inguna Butane

How did women with bodies like these sneak past those dastardly homosexuals?!?!?!?!? How did they get signed to major modeling agencies!?!?!? I know you wanted to find suitable replacements fo "masculine" models on your own but you failed. You know in your heart of hearts that These models >>>>>>>> Guinevere. You also know that high fashion models >>>>>>> your lot lizard models. You won't admit it but its true. You have bad taste honey.

ps. I have two perfectly functioning eyes. Guinevere has pock marks or acne or sores on her ass cheeks. That's not hot.

Danielle: I haven’t argued that all high-fashion models are masculine, and from the very beginning shown some examples of feminine fashion models. Therefore, your question about how some of your examples got past the homosexuals is not applicable. The homosexual influence is clear in the central tendency among high-fashion models, not in every single high-fashion model. Except Inguna Butane, you haven’t cited any big names, but Ms. Butane’s face (yet another example) does not have the sexy element that Melisande does.

Melisande has finer facial features than all the women you cited. You also continue to post pictures where the features aren’t very clear. Here is a closer look at Michelle Buswell’s face. Do you believe that heterosexual men will generally prefer Ms. Buswell to Melisande?

I didn’t post Melisande’s pictures to show an example of a slender and “skinny-waisted” woman, but to show an example of a slender and masculinized woman that would appeal to heterosexual men a lot more than the typical high-fashion model. This is the reason why you are wasting your time citing Reka Ebergenyi’s physique (or Pania Rose) as better examples. Reka isn’t as slender as Melisande in the picture you posted either, and don’t assume that her face is necessarily more appealing than Melisande’s to heterosexual men (example 1, example 2, example 3).

Below you will see Melisande as a warrior Goddess and observe that she is more slender than even Pania Rose in your pictures (Melisande is usually very slender).


Melisande looks great in clothes.


Melisande also looks a woman; contrast her with manly Heidi Klum, whose fake breasts hardly help her in the femininity department (Click for larger image).

Melisande, Heidi Klum

...and you are concerned with pock marks on the backside!

Pania Rose and Reka Ebergenyi aren't big names but they are very successful models. They have done a quite a bit of work. They have done more work than your examples of feminine models. Michelle Buswell WAS a big name. You won't see on the top 50 list that you swear by now a days but she was very popular.

I think that more men will prefer the facial features of Michelle, Pania and Reka to your nude model's face. Your nude model is not beautiful. She is plain. I agree that Inguna's face lacks the "sexy" (sleazy) quality that your nude model has but you chose some small editorial pictures as examples of her features.Inguna is way more beautiful than your fugly model. Here are some bigger, clearer shots of Inguna:

Your model is not thinner than Pania. I don't see how those "warrior" (lol) pictures prove that she is. All those pictures prove is that your nude model does terrible poses and has no curves. Those aren't examples of someone looking great in clothes Eric. LOL! No wonder you think you have artistic images on this site. You are clueless and your taste is horrendous. The pock marks on her ass are indicators that she may not be healthy or disease free. I am sure most men would rather date an attractive fashion model than a STD infected soft-porn model. How is anyone supposed to bring your model home to mama?

You haven't proven that Heidi's tits are fake. You use pictures of someone wearing a push up bra that is probably padded as examples that someone's tits are fake. You are so clueless about every little thing. Heidi's breasts look pretty natural here:

Her breasts don't look like grapefruit halves that were bolted onto her chest. They look fine to me.

Hmm..pock marks on my ass, that was years one week I broke out (I am allergic to almost everything) and did a bunch of shoots and now someone thinks I'm a diseased ugly porn model...pity. Danielle, umm, exactly why do you seem to hate me so much?? I only was on porn for about a year and a half, didn't do a lot of the creepy things people wanted me to do, and I started modeling, (and still am modeling) in fashion, tradeshow and promotional work, which was my main medium all along. You are also the first person to say I am plain or ugly, which intruiges me. Why? Also, why are people arguing about how skinny I am? As good or bad as it sounds, I am 5'7" and 98 lbs, 32B, 22 waist and a size zero. Naturally. Sorry people, but I eat, and workout, and am healthy. So, unfortunately, I'm stick always looking like Twiggy, oh well. I am pretty damn skinny, but I don't know why anyone would care so much. Personally, I've watched a lot of runway shows and a lot of those girls are skinnier than me, and they look awful! Very scary, too skinny, and that's not attractive. I'm just lucky I'm starting to fill out and my teenager body is finally starting to show a little muscle.

Oh, and about my posing, all the pics shown of me on this site so far were taken in the first 6 months of me modeling. It's not very nice to criticize me when I was still a newbie! I wasn't even finished with High School! argh...oh well, it's always a little depressing to hear someone you don't even know posting all over boards that you're ugly and horrible, but at least I have the consolation of knowing that the people who actually know me, love me. Good enough I suppose :-) I'm still wondering why I'm such an intruiging topic?? And all this masculinized bs...argh...doesn't do good things for a girly-girls' self boyfriend cracked up when he read these blog postings.

Melisande,I don't think you are ugly. I was exaggerating. I don't think you are pretty but you shouldn't care what I think. If your ass sores really were the result of allergies then I apologize. I hope you were at least eighteen when you took all of these pictures. You say you were still in high school and that gives me the creeps.

this is rediculous. all the women you've posted are beautiful on the outside from what i can see. and you all are very not beautiful on the inside not only for having these petty thoughts but more so for broadcasting them on the internet. shame... SHAME!!!

Luckily, all the above pics were taken when I was 18. I was trying to get money for an apartment while still going to school, so I could move out of a neighbor's basement :-) (My mom was really religious and bipolar and I got kicked out...)so, money was essential, and of all the applications I put in jobs, I only got one response, from a "fashion photographer" in LA who saw some of my fashion shots. I was actually lied to and told I'd be posing for Playboy. God was I dumb!! (I did eventually make it to the mansion though, that place is awesome!!!)

By the way Danielle, that girl in the red and white striped bikini, Michelle? Is gorgeous!!


Erik calls you "somewhat masculinized" because his definition of "masculinized" is flat-out insane. For instance, Erik stated
[]here[/url] in the comments of his blog entry titled "Karl “models have skinny bones” Lagerfeld rejects three models for being too skinny!" dated Thursday, October 11, 2007:

If you were to sample, say, female college students, a good baseline reference for fashion vs. glamour model comparisons, you may get something like a normally distributed WHR range of 0.64-0.84 with a mean of 0.74

Erik calls models with a WHR (waist-hip ratio) of 0.71 "masculinized" because he has decided that the arbitrary maximum WHR to be considered feminine is 0.68. He admits that among female college students, whom he he considers a "good baseline" for comparisons, there is a "normally distributed WHR range of 0.64-0.84 with a mean of 0.74".

Erik says the normal range of WHR is 0.64 to 0.84 and the mean WHR is 0.74, yet he defines the maximum WHR to be considered feminine as 0.68 and he considers a WHR of 0.71 to be "masculinized" even though it is both WELL WITHIN THE NORMAL RANGE and MORE FEMININE THAN THE MEAN!

Erik labels perfectly normal women "masculinized" by defining feminine as FAR more feminine than the mean, so that even many women who are more feminine than the mean are labeled "masculinized".

Erik said to you, Melisande, "You may be more “girly” than others you know, especially if they happen to be mostly nude models, strippers and women appearing in adult movies since such women are disproportionately masculinized women." Why the hell do heterosexual men pay to look at female strippers and female adult film performers who are "masculinized" - unless perhaps most heterosexual men do not consider these women "masculinized" because they do not agree with Erik's arbitrary definition of feminine.

Erik needs women to be far more feminine than the mean because he suffers from borderline hysterical homosexual anxiety. Read enough of this website and you'll find many references to "men who narrowly escape nonheterosexuality". Oh, the terror!

Erik's belief that sex appeal can be measured in mathematical formulas makes me wonder if he's a bespectacled geek who spends all his time in the lab and has very little experience with actual human females.

In my previous post I mistyped the link in the first paragraph. It should read like this:
Erik calls you “somewhat masculinized” because his definition of “masculinized” is flat-out insane. For instance, Erik stated

I am happy that at least Erik is saying I'm attractive. WhippedHoney, thanks so much, I seriously feel a ton better. I have serious insecurity about having a "12 year old" figure, growing up in a family of curvy thank you :-)


"WhippedHoney, thanks so much, I seriously feel a ton better. I have serious insecurity about having a “12 year old” figure, growing up in a family of curvy thank you

Melisande, I had serious insecurity about having a "Russ Meyer movie" figure, growing up in a family of knife-edge-thin women.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

Some men find your girlish figure extremely sexy. Not all men. There is no female body type that is sexy to all men, because men disagree with each other. Attractiveness is very subjective, despite Erik's insistence that attractiveness can be measured in mathematical formulas.

Erik's insistence that the measure of female beauty is the physical signs of high female hormones and low male hormones means his eyes are permanently closed to the beauty of women with more moderate or mixed hormonal combinations.

Erik's bafflement when he is confronted with evidence that most men do not agree with him is hilarious. The Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue sells like a house on fire because straight men find those models sexy as hell, but Erik says the swimsuit models look like "transvestites" and "eunuch". So why do straight men buy it?

The more interesting point is that the annual Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue is oriented toward heterosexual men, and it sells briskly, which underscores the need for this site. If the masses of heterosexual men knew any better, they would seek alternative publications for pictures of attractive women.

See, the only reason straight men buy the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue with all those butch she-males in bikinis is that they don't KNOW where to find pictures of more hormonally feminized women! It couldn't POSSIBLY be because many straight men actually like women with some androgyny! No... No... NO!!!

Danielle: Your criticism is off topic. You bring in femininity when it isn’t an issue. Here, I am not trying to show a feminine contrast. Sexiness is more relevant, and you have acknowledged that Inguna Butane doesn’t have Melisande’s sexiness. You also asked how is anyone supposed to bring Melisande home to mama? This is irrelevant. Neither is dating a fashion model as opposed to a porn model relevant. By the way, Melisande told me that the porn she has done has been with a boyfriend, i.e., she isn’t a regular porn model.

In Melisande’s picture as a warrior and also many others, she is thinner than the usual Pania Rose.

A woman does not need to have breasts looking like bolted-on grapefruit halves for one to infer that she has breast implants. Heidi Klum has clearly had breast implants at some point. A slight paraphrase of a previously posted comment:


The comparison here shows an obvious example of breast implants. The body weights are not very different. The bra she is wearing on the right is small and no model/designer would be foolish enough to squeeze breasts so hard by using an ill-fitting bra such that the breasts end up looking squished and odd, especially if a woman has a decent bosom, and breasts naturally as big as shown on the right qualify as decent. The alternative explanation is the use of padded bras, but there is only so much padding you can add to the small top she is wearing. Her breasts look so odd in the right picture that there are two reasonable possibilities: implants or digital editing, but why would an artist do such a lame job at image editing? The picture on the left is a runway picture and the one on the right seems to a backstage picture or equivalent, i.e., neither picture has probably been airbrushed. The picture on the right is not recent. The page cited was posted on Nov. 5, 2004, and Heidi Klum had given birth to her first child on May of this year. In recent years her breasts have looked more natural than on the right picture (could be a more refined implant job), and it is safe to assume that the right picture predates her getting pregnant with her first child.

Another picture of note is this, which features a slender and masculine Heidi, in two poses, with large breasts (that do not look natural). The odds of this combination are low. If we were to assume that the breasts in this picture are natural, then the woman would have the genetics of preferentially depositing a great deal of her fat reserves in her breasts, and if such a woman were to gain weight, her breasts would become much more massive, but you don’t see these massive breasts in her heavier pictures. If we again assume photoshopping, then why didn’t the digital artist render the breasts more naturally?

In short, the assertion that Heidi Klum got breast implants at some point is well supported.

I posted more of Melisande’s pictures in a new entry.

Melisande You have asked why are you such an intriguing topic? There wouldn’t be much discussion on the pictures if you hadn’t left a comment to start with and if Danielle -- at her usual self -- hadn’t started trashing your looks. What I am intrigued by is that in spite of having legions of fans and being labeled attractive by me, your self-esteem is undermined by my describing you as somewhat masculinized! This makes me feel guilty, something that has been creeping up on me for some time. If I can have this effect on you, then what kind of effect am I having on many women who unlike you don’t have lots of fans/admirers? I have apologized to some masculinized women because they were really hurt by this site, and I have been sincere about the apologies. I don’t mean to hurt masculinized women; I have nothing against them, but cannot give up working toward altering the fashion world and beauty pageants as well as aiming toward at least one mainstream outlet for feminine beauty appreciation. This moral dilemma is not easily solvable, but I have to deal with it.

You don’t have a 12-year-old’s physique, boy or girl. In the nude pictures, your physique is of a slender woman anywhere in her late teens to early twenties.

Whipped honey: I have never described women with a WHR of 0.71 as masculinized. It is a misunderstanding on your part, which is explained in my reply to you in the comments on the article on Karl Lagerfeld that you have referenced. You also mistook a Gaussian distribution, described as normally distributed, for something within normal variation. Of course, a WHR of 0.71 is well within normal range and on the feminine side of the mean in the study sample.

Heterosexual men pay to see strippers and adult actresses with sub-optimal femininity because there are not many feminine women doing these things. Similarly, the annual Sports Illustrated Swimsuit issue has no competition for reasons already explained in the article that addresses it and hence many heterosexual men are going to purchase it. In controlled laboratory studies, the scenario is different since men are shown pictures of women ranging from feminine to masculine and asked to pick the most appealing ones. These studies show that whereas there isn't 100% agreement, most men (and also most women) prefer above average femininity in women. This is why I can write the article on the SI swimsuit issue that you find absurd.

I don’t experience anxiety related to homosexuality. This very entry belies your claim that I need women to be far more feminine than the mean because of “borderline hysterical homosexual anxiety.” If so, why would I be posting a picture of a woman with Melisande’s looks and calling her attractive? I am not trying to define sex appeal in terms of mathematical formulae. Some academic references are necessary to reduce charges of subjectivity directed toward me.

Erik, how much do you actually know about the sex work industry?

"Heterosexual men pay to see strippers and adult actresses with sub-optimal femininity because there are not many feminine women doing these things."

Do you have any kind of evidence to back up your claim that there are not many "feminine" women working as strippers and adult actresses?

Are you judging purely on the basis of the most successful porn stars? Have you ever even done a random sampling of, say, one thousand porn films?

I have KNOWN porn stars, Erik, and the type you call "masculinized" are actually a minority; they become successful because many porn fans prefer them to the more "feminized" competition. I've lived in Los Angeles and known people who worked in the porn industry. What are your qualifications to make pronouncements on this topic?

I have also spent time quite recently in Houston, Texas, which is the strip club capital of America. The only kind of building Houston has more of than churches is strip clubs. Due to Texans' opposition to zoning ordinances, anyone who owns or rents property can set up a strip club anywere. So the stripper demographics cannot be attributed to any perceived monopoly. The strippers in Houston seem to be evenly split between those you call "masculinized" and those you call "feminine". And the men in the audience don't seem to give a damn either way.

WHR (Waist-Hip Ratio): Erik, you are contradicting yourself

"I have never described women with a WHR of 0.71 as masculinized... Of course, a WHR of 0.71 is well within normal range and on the feminine side of the mean in the study sample."

Erik, you implied clearly that you regard a WHR as not feminine when you stated here:
"Given that a number of feminine women refuse to pose naked and that the selection of glamour models in some major outlets such as Playboy magazine has been influenced by the high status of high-fashion models, some authors(7) have pointed out that with an average waist-to-hip ratio (WHR) of 0.71, fashion models have an hourglass figure given that Playboy models have an average WHR of 0.68!"

You have stated explicitly that you regard most high fashion models as "masculinized" and now you claim that the high fashion model average WHR of 0.71 is "well within normal range and on the feminine side of the mean in the study sample". Come again? If you regard high fashion models' average WHR as "on the feminine side", then why do you call them "masculinized"? If you call high fashion models "masculinized" only because of other characteristics besides their "on the feminine side" WHR, then please be explicit about the fact that you regard the average high fashion model as having a feminine WHR.Y

You have stated explicitly that you regard most Playboy models as "masculinized", yet now you claim their average WHR is "on the feminine side"?

Erik, please make an explicit statement of exactly what range of WHR you consider "feminine". You keep talking out both sides of your mouth.

whipped honey and danielle, you both rock for OWNING erik, he can't come up with any counter arguments because he knows he's beat. you two ROCK.

erik is so definitely a closeted homo, no straight man is this obsessed with the 'dubious and menacing' homosexuals threatening to take away all facets of femininity... give me a break.

come out of the closet, erik, you'll feel so much better!

where are your pics, by the by? i'd bet any amount of money that you're either a scrawny or greatly obese nerd with acne and a tiny prick.

ha ha wrote: "whipped honey and danielle, you both rock for OWNING erik, he can’t come up with any counter arguments because he knows he’s beat. you two ROCK."

Thank you, ha ha.

The thing is Erik, I'm not surprised that I'm not the only woman on this site to be offended by you calling us masculine. The only women I know who don't mind being called masculine very much are those who are trying to look as male as possible, and even many of them like for people to still acknowledge that they are female. Basically, no girl likes to be called masculine, it's kind of an insult, even if it wasn't meant that way, women are proud of being female!! If I had the choice to be a guy, I still wouldn't do it!! I like being a lady!! :-) And I like to think that I look like a femenine one too...especially if I've been raised to act and dress that way...

“Given that a number of feminine women refuse to pose naked"

I think this is incorrect...from my time in the modeling, acting and porn's not that women refuse to pose, it's that many photographers want the supermodel or underage body type when shooting..and many beautiful women are told they are too fat...Such a shame too...

Erik, explain why heterosexual pornographers and adult photographers want "masculine" women

Erik wrote: "“Given that a number of feminine women refuse to pose naked”
Melisande wrote: "from my time in the modeling, acting and porn’s not that women refuse to pose, it’s that many photographers want the supermodel or underage body type when shooting.."

Erik, why do many heterosexual male pornographers and adult photographers want the "supermodel or underage body type" that you insist most straight men do not prefer?

Did you even stop to consider the possibility that many of your "Attractive Women" nude models got TURNED DOWN by pornographers?

Are you going to claim that the heterosexual porn industry is run by men who are not "lifetime exclusive heterosexuals" or "narrowly escaped homosexuality"?


You are indeed very attractive. The most important reason I say that is for a part of your body not discussed here: your eyes. They convey a sense of enthusiastic joy of being alive. It is very appealing.

I'm old enough to remember the cold war. Whenever I saw pictures of eastern europeans, I was struck by the look of their eyes. They looked dead, like the pleasure of life had been beaten out of them. Even hockey players and sex stars, people who should have reason to enjoy life had this look. It was so common, I had assumed it was a slavic racial trait. That look disappeared with communism.

Your eyes look more alive in your non-nude pictures. Perhaps that is some reflection of what was happening in your life when the pictures were taken.

I feel for you, for some of the vicious comments you have suffered here. My advise is Non illigitamus carborundum (don't let the bastards grind you down).

Non illagitamus carborundum. :-) I like that Thanks Steve! and yes, I was practically conned into doing the adult modeling, and very rarely did I truly enjoy a shoot. I feel most alive when I am with friends, when I am dancing, singing, or out in the natural world and not faking sexual excitement for the purpose of paying my bills because some old bastard is going to jack off to it. They say the eyes are the windows to the soul, and indeed, it seems the case.

Hey Melisande, I can see why Erik considers you masculinized but I think you really shouldn't mind that because he also considers you sexy and attractive, and I think most people would agree. Masculinized women are usually offended not by the remarks that they are masculinized, but by the implication that masculinized means unattractive. There is a correlation between feminine appearance and beauty in females, but that is not the case all the time and you are a very good example. Besides, your masculinization is just slight. Moreover, I know a lot of feminine looking women who look plain. What matters is that you are good looking. Heck, I know feminine looking women who'd kill to look like you!

You are NOT "masculinized". Feminine means *characteristic of women* and Erik defines "feminine" as characteristics most women do not have; therefore Erik's definition of "feminine" is automatically invalid and contradictory. When Erik says "femininity", what he really means is exaggerated hormonal hyperfemininity that is ABNORMAL.

Disadvantages of Hormonal Hyperfemininity

1. Shortness
Early puberty/menstruation which causes stunted growth and short height. My hormones shut down my growth at slightly below average female height for an American woman, despite the genes from my masculine and taller than average male height father.
2. Weakness
Difficulty gaining and retaining muscle mass. Despite perfect health all my life my athletic ability is unimpressive.
3. Flabbiness/Lack of muscle tone
Difficulty maintaining even minimal bodily firmness. I would have to have a truly Spartan exercise regimen to be toned.
3. Fat
Very high estrogen causes very high adipose tissue production; the more estrogen, the easier it is to get fat and the harder it is to stay thin. Melisande, I guarantee I have to eat half as much and exercise twice as much as you do just to stay not even as thin as you are.
4. Low career success
Testosterone is a major stimulant of competitiveness and aggressiveness (it's the reason teenaged boys are so obsessed with winning at sports) so women with very low testosterone rarely succeed in high paying professional careers, unless they force themselves, as I have forced myself, to behave every day in a way that is truly unnatural for them.

Erik is out of touch with most heterosexual men

1. Studies of subjective reactions like aesthetic taste are notoriously easy to manipulate to produce whatever results the studier wants.
2. Preference is relative, not absolute; even men who do prefer hormonally hyperfeminine women often still find non-hyperfeminine women attractive.

Ask every straight guy you know what they think of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue models and you will see how PROFOUNDLY out of touch with most heterosexual men Erik is.

Whipped honey:


- Erik, how much do you actually know about the sex work industry?

I don’t have special knowledge of the porn industry, but the websites that I have gotten many pictures shown within this site from usually offer pictures of porn stars and strippers, ranging from the top-ranked ones to the lesser known models. It has been my clear observation that porn stars and strippers tend to be less feminine on average than nude models who don’t go beyond artistic nudity.

When few women, especially the more attractive ones, are willing to pose nude, men are not going to complain if the women who dance naked in front of them are not so attractive.

I haven’t contradicted myself about the 0.71 and 0.68 WHR figures. It is true that both these values are on the feminine side of the average in women, but these are circumferential measurements. The passage you quoted was in reference to hourglass figures, something that is only applicable to the front view.

A thin woman will have a small waist circumference and may end up with a WHR lower than average, but if she has small breasts and a large rib cage, then in front view, the wider rib cage will stretch out the waist, which is not consistent with an hourglass look (requires a narrow mid-section). The point should be clear: be careful of interpreting circumferential WHR. The page where you got the passage from should make it clear that femininity should be judged from overall appearance. So even if a woman has a single measurement/feature that is more likely found among feminine woman, this does not mean that the woman is necessarily feminine. It is certainly possible for some more overall masculine women to have a lower WHR than some more overall feminine women.

Whereas the fashion model measurements are expected to be reliable since their accurate measurements are a job requirement (unless there is an unwritten rule that their measurements are faked in a specific manner), the self-reported measurements of Playboy centerfolds are questionable. The weights of the Playboy models are clearly underreported on average, and their bust measurements are mostly useless from 1990 onward since at least half of them have implants.

Your question about photographers wanting models with supermodels’ or underage physiques is answered in my reply to Melisande.

Whereas I am certainly not employing a definition of femininity along the lines of a “characteristic of women,” my definition doesn’t involve hyperfemininity. A feminine woman is on the feminine side of the average for females on the masculinity-femininity axis/discriminant. Naturally, only a minority of women can be discernibly feminine among women. See the example of the distribution of facial masculinity-femininity in men and women. I have also mentioned that beyond a certain point, above average femininity diminishes attractiveness in women. So I am not calling hormonal hyperfemininity beautiful.

You have a strange list of correlates of hyperfemininity. Sex hormones only partly influence height. Developing under more estrogens will make one shorter, but one could still be a tall and very feminine woman, depending on genetic inheritance. Similarly, testosterone only explains a minority of the variance in how competitive/aggressive one is. Estrogens do not make one fatter in general, but are associated with an altered fat deposition pattern, which in women translates to more fat deposition in the breasts and backside/upper thighs and less in the abdominal region. Don’t blame lack of muscle tone on estrogens. Healthy feminine women have decent muscle tone.

Aesthetic taste is not merely subjective. Studies in neurophysiology have revealed correlates of brain function associated with aesthetic pleasure.

Melisande: A website with the goal of promoting feminine beauty can’t help but distinguish masculine from feminine women, and the very need to do this stems from the dearth of feminine beauty in the limelight. So even if many women in the average to masculine range will not be pleased to learn that they are not physically feminine, there is not a whole lot that can be done about this. I have some materials on self-esteem issues and improving looks that are of limited help. I will expand on these materials and organize them better, but there is only so much one can do if one is trying to promote feminine beauty.

I am not sure what you are trying to get at by saying “it’s not that women refuse to pose.” Most women in the general population will not pose nude. As far as photographers telling beautiful women that they are too fat or wanting supermodel types go, it is difficult to comment unless I know what you are referring to. Since you had a difficult time understanding why I was describing you as somewhat masculinized, I doubt that you have in mind what I am referring to as feminine beauties. There is no way photographers are declining feminine beauties who wish to pose nude. I can understand the reference to women with underage physiques. Deviant sexual interests are more likely to be accompanied by a stronger libido and hence men interested in underage girls are more likely to be regular paying customers and be willing to pay more. So a specific preference for 18-year-old nude models who look a couple of years younger is understandable among photographers.

I feel the need to comment here, mainly because I think Danielle is being WAY too critical of Melisande - to the point of being flat-out destructive.

Now, having seen Melisande in person a few times, I can easily say that she is incredibly beautiful and quite healthy. In fact, she far more beautiful in person IMHO - like Steve said above, her eyes say it. Why Danielle feels the need to be so rude and destructive towards you, Melisande, (for no apparent reason at all) makes me sick to my stomach. Now don't misunderstand me here - I'm all for people having their opinions, good or bad, but viciously attacking someone over their looks doesn't belong here (or anywhere).

Melisande, I really hope that you don't take her personally..

That red hair whore is really ugly. look almost like the sex changed gay in my country.with such a big teeths like a horse, rat face and narrow eyes. Gee!

Seem people on here like red butt whore with party spot on it??

Come on, guys...

The top unflattering picture had been shot by an inept photographer.
It's pretty obvious.

If you can't see that, you must be a life-time exclusive homo !

Here's Melisande along with some random Beauty Standard (Claudia Schiffer) for the sake of contrast :


I really just don't know what everyone is saying with all their "negative" talk and whatnot about you. I think you are a very beautiful and gorgeous woman and I love all the photo shoots you did. I only came across this forum trying to find more of you on Google. You're simply delicious to look at! Feel good!! I'm only saddened that you aren't posing erotically any longer. But, happy you have found a good place to be in life.

Erik I'd like you to take a look at this.........

And after you already visited those two site? Please answer me too what do u think okay? because your melisande seem to fall into what that site call as " POOR FACIAL DEVELOPMENT" with the "mouth breathing"
but why her appearance is turned to be like that on that site, u will find out the answer after read all whole? it's not that long. I suggest u to read both site.
frankly, I do not find melisande is look pretty at all. her face seem to look much like a RAT for me. with her big front teeths and pronouced mouth breathing just like that two sites stated as people whom have a problem about breathing ( due to their genetic staying in very cold countries and eatting modernized diet.
awhile the women you mentioned them as "underdeveloped" is seem to be a character of healthy and well-formed that all western people seem wanted to be.

( look forward to hear your reply)

nd this

Hello Melisande I think you are very pretty....exotic. I would really love to have the picture of you blowing a kiss above... pretty please??


I completely agree with Danntonio. You are remarkably beautiful and very striking. In my opinion, you are one of the most attractive women I have ever seen.

And as for you being insulted for "having the body of a teenager", you shouldn't be upset. In a world that is obsessed with youthful looks, you have what many pay great deals of money to try and obtain.


Why do all the fat chicks get on the internet and criticize normal sized, fit women? To them, any woman within 10% of her ideal body weight is anorexic, starving, or a skeleton. They do this to try to change people's thinking that they themselves are 'real women' and that they just have 'curves' and other such nonsense. No honey, you're fat. FAT. Time to hit the gym and put down the twinkies.

These women are inshape, attractive, and gorgeous. Nice to see some women like this. We need more of this and less tubs of lard walking around. The number one thing 99% of the women out there can do to look better is lose weight.

James: I don’t think the negative comments are coming from obese women.  The two female critics here are Danielle and the woman posting as son of Geats, Gee!, blue fog (elsewhere as Zonneschijn, Z, etc.).  Danielle has given up on this site, but her comments indicated that she was greatly disturbed by this site promoting feminine beauty and the manner by which it is being promoted.  Danielle indicated that she had masculinized looks by “my standards” but not by hers, and her negative comments are not really directed toward Melisande, but toward me; she was trying to trash my work or express her anger toward me.  Danielle gave no indication of being overweight and her beef was mostly with the femininity part and the use of/sources of risqué pictures on my part.

The other woman, Zonneschijn, based on her extensive comments, is most likely a thin woman lacking feminine curves.  She is also disturbed by this site, and has a problem with white women.  She has called many of my healthy-weight examples of feminine women fat.  Zonneschijn is half Danish and half southeast Asian (Thai), and the latter element mostly likely predominates in her looks.  Hence the [likely] reason why she cited examples of wide jaws as examples of healthy jaw and teeth development.  Whereas I agree with her that a number of problems with teeth (especially decay) in developed societies are related to eating refined foods, she doesn’t appreciate that Melisande has a well-formed jaw and face, and that the mouth-breathing expression is a deliberate pose adopted upon instruction from the photographer in order to look seductive.   Melisande’s facial narrowing is partly a function of having finer facial features, which is more common among European women, and partly a result of not being feminine; there is nothing malformed in her face.        

Honestly even your study of male vs. female faces was full of bull to me. The changes are so subtle and depend on so much more than what you discuss.

Beauty is a quality that is formed by opinions, not formulas.

And not all thinner models are automatically masculine, for the record, and the reason for lack of "feminine"-or as I see it, the extreme end examples of feminine you CALL properly feminine- models in the high fashion industry is because they are passed off as fat. In today's world, Marilyn Monroe would be called a fat cow and told to lose weight if she tried to model. It's because of Twiggy and the low bmi's, not masculinity and homosexuals dominating the industry (wtf, give me a friggin' break, it has nothing to do with the topic!). And those women who have a skinnier body type without starving themselves are prized BECAUSE of this new cultural idea of thinner=better. It has nothing at all whatsoever to do with feminine vs. masculine.

oh, and by the way, I am a WOMAN typing this.

And the most feminine-looking women I know could blow your examples out of the water. A body does not make someone. Honestly it's the face.
MOst of your examples of masculine women are actually quite feminine, and high cheekbones are a beauty standard set thousands of years ago that cannot be ignored-Look at the bust of Nefertiti, for example. Still seen as a symbol of beauty today, and she is sculpted with high cheekbones.
And hourglass curves are almost impossible. Your argument is screaming for a minority-a HUGE minority-to emerge.
My sister has an hourglass build-I've only met two women that have one. I am myself more feminine in build and -I- definitely don't have one. A girl can have broad shoulders and still be masculine, and your examples of teenage boys for comparison were frequently more feminine than any I've seen.

In short, get a life, this page is atrocious, and you must be half blind. If you want to judge beauty with math, you may as well try to keep jello nailed to a tree: it ain't happening. I suggest you close the site. All you're doing is hurting the esteems of the many women you'd blatantly call too masculine with nothing more than a fancy skull sheet to base it on, NOT their eyes, NOT their smiles, NOT the things that really appear feminine.

And most of the women on the site you said look like men in drag look feminine to me. They're all feminine to a degree because they are all WOMEN. This is atrocious.

Ps. Guinivere-good for you for sticking it to him. Your thinner frame has nothing to do with how feminine you are. And you have a lovely smile.
and uh, "pock marks" on peoples' asses are kind of part of having skin. People get marks on their bodies. Grow up, folks. We all have one somewhere. If you want something "perfect" go masturbate to tanning lotion-coated asses in your shitty overglossed porn.

Sophie strauss is one of the hottest females on the planet! She has it all. She looks amazing in clothes or in her god given birthday suit. She is the only women who in porn or in real life I would leave my wife for. I wish that she would only do anal.

Melsiande is hot and this forum is full of trolls.

i think your beautiful. a body like yours is still a site to see. yes people do judge poorly on size and shape. melisande is also right about on why are you guys debating so much on her physical attributes shes a beautiful young girl who is attractive and has a nice body thats not to small or to big shes just right for her hight and weight. and i have seen other pictures of melisande and her skin, smile, stomach, and chest is beautiful. oh and just to let all the others know im a theoretical physisis and a bioengineer whith also the knowledg of anatomy and physology.

with my educated analysis on melisande's body is you can clearly see that her stomach and her neck are not so streched out due to being a user or dieter her body covers a clean amount of her skeletal figure which in states that she is a healthy and functional woman. in which case those other model pictures shows there complete skeletal figure that can scare some people due to less body fat. melisande has a nice deal of body fat that alows her to look appealing to men especialy with her glutes.along with her healthy skin. from my scientific analysis she is a remarkable female creation. but only scientificly speaking. visualy speaking you have your choice of jugedment.the graph i used to calculate all of her fetures scientificly and visualy, showed remarkable results compared to several models. her facial expresions are 36% higher than a average fashion model which they have only 13 points of facial exppression. melisande's body has a 43.2267% more muscle stimulation than an average model who has only 4 points of muscle stimulation makeing melisande more stimulating than models. the last peace of data was her Clavical and her Platysma for both of them the have 16.5% and 21.386% more show than an average model. for a model only has about 5 points of show and 3 points of show. this is data that says melisande is very beautiful and model are just made to wear clothing not to be a gorgeouse women. also it would look strange to see a model nude.

Daniel and Whipped Honey are just rude and incapable of rational arguments so they get too emotive and attack others.

Melisande: You are very beautiful. Erik is a dumbass. Your youthfulness is an advantage. You are perfect just the way you are!

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