mariah carey had a dreadful boob job and has a thick middle---how is she feminine? i see naomi has middle of the road-- i think since she is part chinese, her facial features (most notably protruding cheekbones and defined jaw) is due to that east asian ancestry. she said this in an interview---that she is part asian. many jamaicans are. tyson beckford has a similar ethnic background---and looks like the truyly masculine version of her. her body is so muscley--but she is a classically trained ballet dancer so... all i know is in person, she is just glowing and insanely, overwhelmingly delicate and beautiful . she isn't super feminine, but no gisele.
You are right, Amelia. The reason cheekbones are hardly ever showing in the face of children is because of the adequate amount of facial fat that they have. If you look at picture fo children who are starved, you will see their cheekbones and jawlines showing in the same way that fashion models are. Cheekbones become more pronounced with age because of the loss of facial fat, which makes the face look thinner and at even older ages, skin becomes wrinkled.
The thing that makes pronounced cheekbones attractive to some people is the sophistication that is associated with it, it gives even a younger woman a more mature and experienced look than if her face was more roundish or oval. Mr. Holland says my cheekbones are low, but I don't think he took a good look at them. Everyone else says I have the cheekbones of a model, by the way I am not bragging.
Although, high fashion models go through great pains, sometimes unhealthy, oftentimes, to stay as thin as they are, I do find their facial structures to be appealing in some ways. I am taken by the serious looks on their faces and their aloofness. Then again, this is a matter of personal tastte and there are even men out there, heterosexual exclusively, who find women who look this way attractive and they are entitled to do so and no one has any right to label them as having homosexual or bisexual tendencies. Actually, I am happy to know that there are men out there with a variety of tastes and interests as well as women with a variety of tastes.
Actually, in my personal opinion, the modeling world should move towards diversification, which will sell even more to the public because women will begin to look more for the types of clothings and cosmetics that will flatter and bring out the uniqueness of their own look instead of feeling unappreciated because of the prevalence of only one type of look. This is the healthiest approach towards this issue and men will appreciate it as well because their unique tastes will be catered to as well.
Looks like Mr. Holland is making a record for himself here, "swarthy semites" and "Unlike you, whites have no problems telling apart their boys from girls; the problem lies with your deficient perception." Mr. Holland says "whites" as if he can see through the eyes of every white on planet earth.
Mr. Holland, what do you know about norms among European women or Iranian women, who are also recognized as Caucasian, or Semitic people or Sub Saharan Africans????
Can you use people's testimonies here to make your point instead of your own statements and prove that there are others out there who appreciate your site? No, you can't and simply make a mindless statement about how people who disagree are more likely to comment than those who agree, thinking that we are all naive enough to believe that. As a visitor to many many websites, political, religious, fashion, you name it, every time I observed people's comments those who appreciate the contents of a website always thank the person who created it and express their gratitude and those who did not appreciate or disagreed left their input as well. This is the only website I have ever visited that has had so many opponents posting comments, and almost entirely no supporters. Where are your supporters, Mr. Holland? Who are they? Have you deluded yourself into thinking you have any? Where are you heterosexual male supporters who appreciate your attempt to promote "feminine beauty" and to "create public awareness about the trends of unhealthy looking, masculine high fashion models" and how gays are repsonsible for the spread of anorexia and a poor body image?
You think Naomi Campbell is MASCULINE?! Wow, you really ARE blind. And please quit calling women "transvestites." You are so rude and mean. There are people who naturally look like models and I know damn well you're hurting their feelings with such comments.
Um, what is "fake femininity"? And in my opinion, all the women on this page are beautiful in their own ways. I love the variety: thin, curvy, thin and curvy, etc. I especially like Dana. :D But, please stop calling Heidi Klum "mannish." I have only seen ONE guy who has her body shape and he was like 17. Since most people wouldn't mistake her for male, she's not "mannish."
Kristin: I am surprised by your accusation that my definition of femininity centers around Northern European women. You left a bunch of comments in this entry and could not have missed my repeated criticism of “d’Artagnan” for employing the supposedly “classical concept of femininity” where, say, shorter height or smaller nose equals more feminine regardless of ancestry. I repeatedly emphasized the necessity of controlling for ancestry. For instance, concerning the elements you pointed out, controlling for ancestry, masculinization makes the nose more prominent and also broader, the hips narrower and the buttocks flatter. Therefore, when white women have more prominent but also narrower noses as well as flatter buttocks but also wider hips than sub-Saharan African women, then how could these elements be used to assign greater femininity to one or the other group, and how would it be possible to say that Northern European women are lacking point blank from the perspective of sub-Saharan Africans? Here is another entry where you left a comment, and undoubtedly read my explanation as to why a broad-faced Central European woman, Nikky Case, is feminine notwithstanding her sharp jawline and squared face; I asked the reader to consider ancestry when judging. I would not use Northern European norms to judge other European populations, let alone non-Europeans, yet you come up with your comment! Unlike you, whites have no problems telling apart their boys from girls; the problem lies with your deficient perception.
Your comment appears to have stemmed from my telling Aileen that she looks more masculine than the norm for European women, but I don’t think you know how she looks or else you would not doubt it.
Kristin: There is more to this site than what you mention. Some women are interested in how masculine or feminine they are, and as long as I am not overwhelmed by questions such as the other commentator’s, I will answer them.
Anon: You are getting the hang of it...judging how masculine or feminine a woman is should be based on overall appearance, and the overall face shape of Nikky Case is feminine. The point is not deciding what carries more weight, but noting the fact that the processes underlying masculinization-feminization are only partly shaping physical features. Factors other than sex hormones contribute to a masculine or feminine look. Therefore, if in a given person multiple features, distributed over many parts of the body, suggest femininity but few features suggest masculinization, then the appropriate conclusion is femininity and that the masculine-looking elements do not represent masculinization but other factors instead.
in pic 1 and 3 she is wearing a padded bra. in pic 2, there is serious airbrushing. i know because i learned in school how to digitally alter pics.
i know the bras are padded cuz they are from victoria secret--the angel and desire line(i think, but search for the original pics)-- find them on the website. they explain they are padded.
Kristin: You mentioned that Halle Berry had a 21-inch waist in the movie Catwoman. Now that I have cited two pictures of her from this movie, you say that airbrushing, studio lighting and posing tricks have been used to make her look less feminine. How do you know this? And why would someone do this? The comic character that the movie is based on is supposed to have a very feminine physique. For some strange reason the director cast a non-white woman as Catwoman, but why would anyone want to make her look less feminine? The small pictures you cited are too obscure, and in the big ones it looks like a corset is being used to squeeze her mid-section. Regarding the stated waist measurements of fashion models, there may be an unwritten industry rule to lie in a specified manner, but unless there is proof, this will remain mere speculation; these women may not have narrow waists in front view, but in side view they are very narrow because of little body fat.
Laurie: I already gave you a basis: Maria McBane’s physique. Your physique is unlikely to look as dramatic as hers given her 5-inch smaller waist circumference. Obviously, a narrower mid-section will present a more notable hourglass effect.
Anon: The extent of body is fat is obviously relevant to presenting a feminine look. Gaining an inch on the waist is not a problem if you correspondingly gain an appreciable amount of fat in your breasts and other places relevant to femininity.
What I find funny is that MANY women would like high cheekbones because it adds structure to your face. And also, high cheekbones can be attributed to your ethnic heritage, such as African or Native American. Does that mean it makes a person inherently masculine? No.
What I think Mr. Holland needs to do is restructure his site to really put the focus on the real issue on hand: unhealthy body depictions. Instead of slamming fashion models for being less than women, he should be providing an analysis on why it's unhealthy and what the average woman looks like.
He says that the majority of the population prefers feminine features-- of course they do, when you compare it to Kate Moss or Twiggy! The average person would rather see healthy body figures represented than unhealthy below normal BMI range figures. He also fails to address some rather obvious things regarding facial features and bone structure:
1. Perhaps the reason why so many fashion models have high, pronounced cheekbones is because their lack of body fat? If you have less than the normal range, your facial bone structure will become more obvious, rather if you were within a healthy range and had "padding" on your face.
2. Perhaps the reason why so many fashion models look like adolescent boys-- which IS frighteningly true-- is because their lack of fat consumption caused their secondary sex characteristic development to become stunted? I know that one theory behind why so many female gymnasts are shorter than average is because while they are mostly muscle, their lack of fat consumption and body fat content caused them to have lower estrogen levels, and biology shows us that estrogen plays a vital role in bone growth. And if a model restricts herself to a diet ill-fitted for her natural body figure (whether it may be a heavier figure, hourglass, or nonhourglass), her body will not grow properly. There are various theories regarding female puberty development, but one strong indicator is body fat content. It isn't so much the hourglass figure that makes a woman look feminine, but body fat, which adds softness and curves to a woman's figure in contrast to the sharp angles of a man. Don't eat much fat or have fat on you? Well you'll have angles instead. Now whether or not those angles are NATURAL is where the real problem lies-- many fashion models cannot be that thin naturally.
3. Only a professional doctor, after running various tests and a medical examination, can determine whether or not a person has "more or less" of estrogen/feminine hormones or testosterone/masculine hormones. To assume that a person has significantly more of one than the other based on their looks is ignorant and a poor use of science. Each individual is different in their biological makeup and only a doctor can determine that.
Erik, please stop trying to force your opinions of femininity onto everyone. You are not an expert on femininity. Femininity is SUBJECTIVE. It CAN'T be studied. Hell, anyone who is a woman is "feminine" technically. How the hell can you say a woman is not feminine? That's like saying a car is not a mode of transportaion. And what's with all your talk about white women having a more feminine shape? What? The most curvy people I've seen were African American and Latina. Hell, a lot of white girls I've seen have NO shape at all, let alone a feminine waist-to-hip ratio.
People know what's beautiful, okay? You can't teach them what's beautiful. You continuously call women "male transvestites" and "transsexuals" and that's so completely and utterly dumb and insulting. Hell, with some transsexual women, you can't even TELL they were born men. Oh and I could see the difference between Alessandra and the "average girl." Especially when it came to the body. The "average girl's" body actually looks more "masculine" than Alessandra's at some angles.
But, yeah. Just because you like certain women and just because you've done "tests" doesn't mean you're right. No one's preferences are going to change just because you don't like celebrities or models. Everyone isn't shaped like your dream girls, so don't make fun of them. They are beautiful in their own ways. The fact that beauty is so diverse (skinny girls, curvy girls, big girls) makes the world all the more awesome. And about the "average girls" you say most guys look over, those are the girls that most guys get! They're not going to get the celebrity or the model. Hello? As I said before, beauty can't be taught. You continuously talk about people being shallow and such about beauty and skipping over the "real" beauty, but you're being shallow and choosy yourself. That's so hypocritical. How about you celebrate ALL the different types of beauty? Or is that so hard?
This site really pisses me off. I don't understand how you can call such beautiful women ugly and masculine...they have made names for themselves because they are so beautiful. Different men like all different kinds of women, and you cannot say that YOUR opinion is the opinion of MOST men, because I can assure you every single man I have ever met, including my own father (who is a "lifetime exclusive heterosexual male") find them attractice! They are beautiful, just get over it and stop criticizing them! How would you like it if someone made a website criticizing you and every flaw on your body?? The models are not attacking anyone, but everybody seems to attack them for just being skinny. And Alessandra Ambrosio does NOT have breast implants. Do some damn research before you claim these kinds of things. FYI, Victorias Secret bras can do AMAZING things...they can make a B Cup look like a large C, which is what they do with Alessandra. Don't hate on her for being naturally small chested. I am a B Cup, so are you going to call me unattractive and masculine, because I don't have huge boobs? There are all kinds of body types out there...all kinds of shapes. And not everybody is an hourglass shape, and I dont think that people should try to look some way that they arent. No matter how much weight some people gain gain or lose, they are not going to look that way, because it isnt natural for them. Stop making gross generalizations, like "real heterosexual" men hate supermodels, and "real" women are hourglass and can't have strong features. Because being a woman, I can tell you that Alessandra looks very classy to me, I wouldnt mind looking like her :) But those women you posted are the kind that show up on those internet porn sites. No man or woman goes on those sites to admire their bodies or beauty, they are looking at in an animalistic fashion, just at the sex acts going on or the suggestive poses. Which is okay, that is the point of porn. But those women arent on the internet because they are anything special, they are just the ones willing to post naked pictures!
Ah that is a mouthful :)
But really this site is very insulting to me, because you are making generalizations that frankly arent true.
One of the most profound hourglass shapes recognized among women in Hollywood was that of the olive skinned Italian actress Sophia Loren who was approximately my height, 5'8' and also had relatively broad shoulders and robust high cheekbones. She was recognized by the international community as the most beautiful woman in the world and pictures of her can be found on the internet in a variety of attires, even partially nude.
Mr. Holland appears not to be a fan of women who manage to be successful and famous regardless of their looks, because he even ruled out another beautiful Italian actress, Monica Belucci, as having looks impressive enough to be used as an example of feminine beauty. With respect to Sophia Loren, he suggested that her "abnormal cheekbones" ruled her out as an example of feminine beauty when in fact many women have requested to have cheekbones like hers from plastic surgeons.
Either way, regardless of how much you get into it with him about hourglass shapes or anything else for that matter, the simple fact appears to be that he just has an issue with most of the women in today's world and those who have come further than the teenaged nude girls whose pictures he has used as examples of feminine beauty, most of whom appear silly, naive, and not even developed physically. Note I am just hypothesizing again and say "appears to be," and Mr. Holland can prove me wrong.
Amelia, you are right, Mr. Holland does contradict himself at least several times and the more he is under pressure from people who respond to him, the more illogical he sounds.
It seems that Mr. Holland is taking his sweet time when outdebated himself to fluff up his responses. I hope he does some serious thinking first and may be forced to do so. Take care girls and Charly. I will just tell you one thing. As much as we can expose a person and his/her intentions due to the fact that he/she is so obvious, most things do speak for themselves.
I wouldn't go so far as to demand Erik's pictures, but once again, he fails to address the REAL issue: comparing healthy body figures (which includes more than just the hourglass) versus unhealthy (fashion model waifness).
Though cs has a point, I would also like to see if Erik falls into the "true" perspective of manliness and masculinity.
Erik...could you please put up a picutre of your self up on this web site? I would like to have a good go at your looks and body shape. Further, I need to determine if you are masculine enough to be able to make the comments you do about women.
If you would be kind enough to do as I have requested then I would be able to marginalize you in equal measure.
I could suggest certain exercises and dietary constraints for you to achieve my own personal ideal of maleness.
Afterall, we all know, there is nothing more to a woman than their looks or their body shape.
I also wanted to mention one last thing-- perhaps you should redefine your definition of what an hourglass is. If you look at real hourglasses, you'll notice that some have "nipped in" middles, whereas others have sloping lines to the centers. Some women have very sloping lines, and some women have nipped in waists. It's really a matter of how you choose to define it.
I can't believe you actually used to word "swarthy". Being of East Indian ancestry, I really despise that word and have been called that one too many times.
You said:
" 1. This site is not about achieving an hourglass figure; it is about promoting women with these figures among models and beauty pageant contestants; read the solutions page for how one could go about it."
I agree with your solutions, yes. However, you continue to imply very subtley throughout the site what a "true" female body should look like, such as with a caption above the two nude girls saying "what a feminine body should look like". You say this site is about promoting women with more diverse figures, yet the focus of your site appears to debase women who do not have those figures, and even women who are naturally thin. And then you point out that women should strive to achieve the ideal.
" 2. This site does address body image/self-esteem issues and also exercise. "
Yes it does so credit will be given where it's due. Again, very little of the site is devoted to that and a casual reader of the site would probably get lost in the anti-fashion model aspects instead of coming across the healthier topics.
" 3. I don’t want women to do anything with their facial features; read point #1 again."
Yet you continue to have information regarding facial structure and what a "true feminine" face should look like. In all honesty, put yourself in a woman's shoes and look at this from her perspective-- how do you think that would make her feel, along with the many other women who have gotten that impression?
" 4. There is no argument here that only hourglass figures are feminine; see, for instance, Table 1 on the page addressing body image/self-esteem issues. Do I need to promote awareness of the variety of looks among women? The very suggestion is ridiculous; the typical person has already seen a wide variety of looks among women. "
No actually that suggestion is not ridiculous. You seem to be contradicting yourself! First, you say that you want to see modeling and pageants incorporate "feminine" bodies instead of rail-thin Nicole Richie (which I don't disagree with) but you then insist that the suggestion is ridiculous? Suggesting, or more like assuming, that the average person has already seen a variety of looks is ridiculous. Depending on where you live in the country and how you are exposed to things really determines whether or not you have seen a variety of looks. I met a girl from california recently at school who went to a fashion show where an Indian girl was a model. The girl from california said she was "really surprised" to see that fashion shows would actually consider diversifying their models.
"5. I am part of the problem by propagating beauty myths to dispel beauty myths?"
It's exactly what Dove is doing. Don't get me wrong, I get their message but it's always what the media does with beauty-- uses one myth to take down the other. Such as with their "real women have curves". What if you are naturally and healthily thin, and don't have much of curves? Are you perhaps, not a real woman? It's what you're arguing here-- that "real femininity" is about being an hourglass figure in order to combat the Nicole Richie look. You don't need an hourglass to do that-- all you need is a healthy body.
"What is this? I have no problems accepting “real” women. The Gods have created great diversity, and presumably for good reasons. However, this does not mean that women should be picked at random for modeling purposes or as beauty pageant contestants or that people should not find some specific look more appealing than others. When feminine women are needed, feminine ones should be used, and beauty pageants should be about high aesthetic standards just as the Olympics are about high sporting standards. What is unreasonable about this?"
There is nothing unreasonable about aesthetic standards needing to be used, but a matter of how "high" of standards. Take a look (which you already know) at the "high" standard of thinness is doing to women. In the 80's, a sample size for a model was a 6 or an 8-- which is still a healthy, thin size. Now it's a 0 and a 2-- how much smaller will it get? What I'm trying to say is, if you really believe that the hourglass is *the way* to go, what are women going to end up doing to themselves in order to acheive it? Do you really want to see women disfiguring themselves with corsets again? Why can't ALL body shapes be acceptable to appeal to a greater audience of women? You'd think that would be common sense from a marketing and business standpoint, but once again, many designer clothes are for the elite.
I want to point out that I do agree with many parts of your website-- awareness regarding eating disorders, allowing healthier figures into modeling, etc. But unfortunately, all of that gets lost in your "the hourglass figure is the feminine figure" arguments and insinuations.
How on earth are women supposed to strive for a figure that they weren't born with? I'm 5'5" and I lost 30 pounds and I am not fat, but by no means am I an hourglass figure. I have a "nipped in" waist with broad shoulders, a big ribcage, a big bust and narrow hips. How am I supposed to strive for an hourglass figure? I'm just glad that I still have the self-esteem to be happy for once in my life regarding the way I look, and that I can fit into size 5 pants. I'm not "hot" but I've been told here and there that I'm cute-- I have an oval shaped face, a small chin, but a sorta big nose (I'm east Indian, it happens) and medium-sized eyes. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to possibly strive for a more "feminine" face, or how any woman is supposed to.
Why can't women be allowed to determine what really is "feminine" and beautiful? You'd be surprised how many more women would be happier with themselves and have better self-esteem is for once, a man could just step down and stop trying to mold a cookie-cutter for something that he himself is not a part of.
I'm not saying I don't appreciate the GOOD efforts you have done-- but you are going about it in the wrong way and have NO idea about the amount of discouragement you're putting out there to so many women.
Swarthy is a term sometimes used to describe the complexion of individuals with dark skin pigmentation. The term is generally used informally and can be racially offensive. It is traditionally used to identify people of East Mediterranean origin.
In the United States, the term is increasingly used as slang for Indian Americans and Middle Easterners, but may be used to identify Southern Europeans and Hispanics
My point is from what i see when i stare at nicky case she clearly has a square jaw which immediately makes me think masucline this is just with reference to the facial/jaw structure however considering her other features i.e nose shape, lips, eyes etc...her whole face does have a feminine look but when staring at her jaw alone it clearly says masucline. But yes i agree her face overall is feminine looking. But on what basis do you decide that facial features i.e nose shape, lips etc... are more important with reference to femininety than say facial structure?
when im slim as in very slim my waist measures around 25 inches however the more weight i gain my waist measurment slightly increases its now 26 inches so basically what your saying is the dramaticness of an hourglass figure can be changed through weight gain or weight loss ofcourse the physical bpody sturcture itself not being able to change.
you still did not answer my question on what basis do you come to this conclusion? what factual evidence? is it just a case of a 24 inch waist looks more like an hourglass figure?
Also, Mr. Holland, when you make a website such as this one and leave room for comments by the general public (domestic and international) you need to acknowledge as a mature adult man that you cannot use belittling terms to describe the interests peoples of different sexual orientations (gays/bisexuals/etc), political ideologies (feminists/etc), and professions (psychologists/etc) in a community (domestic and international) that is rapidly moving towards diversification and toleration of differences. Regardless of what your commentors, who are not repsonsible for the contents of your website and the assertions that you make are saying to you and their choice of words, you need to be wary of your choice of words as a credible analyst/scientist if you do not want to lose respect in the eyes of those who observe your works.
You say that opponents are more likely to leave comments than supporters, but we all know Mr. Holland, that the fact of the matter is quite different and you need to work around that.
Hello Mr. Holland, if I am writing under different aliases such as Raymond and Maria then perhaps you are also writing under the alias of Sandy and are actually attempting to sound like an inteligent woman who agrees with some of what you say and then use her as an example to prove your point. I am just hypothesizing
Good thing that you appreciate women having self esteem. I am happy to hear that, its one of the best things I have heard from you so far. I am also happy to see that you are learning to work around people's arguments instead of repeating the same thing over and over again because it is quite evident that you are under a great deal of pressure of what people are posting here and have very forwardly presented yourself as a person who has no liking for what feminists stand for, for the practice of psychology as a science, for "pathetic homosexuals...." (how could I be Raymond, I thought that he is a pathetic homosexual)
Also, may I ask how many heterosexual men from my ethnic group, which consists of tens of millions of individuals, have you interviewed as to what their particular aesthetic preferences are and also how many heterosexual men of European ancestry have you interviewed with which you have come to the conclusions that you have????? True, I have no problem attracting many heterosexual men in my own ethnic group who are absolutely taken by my looks and also, interestingly, I find that a lot of men with European ancestry wind up staring at me head to toe as well as my face when they are with whom you would describe as their more feminine looking European ancestry girlfriend. My current boyfriend from work is Russian and there are so many Russian girls that he has ruled out to be with me.
For the record, Iranians are not semites. Iranians are Indo Europeans and are Caucasian. We are geographic neighbors of semetic peoples such as the Arabs and the original sephardic Jews and the phoenicians (current day Lebanese people who some authentic Arab ancestry but have looks very similar to southern Europeans), but we are not semites,only have some slight semitic ancestry as a result of Arab-Iranian fusion. A great many of us also have East Indian, African (more towards the south of Iran),Eastern European ancestry, and even some East Asian ancestry as a result of interbreeding with Mongolians when attacked by Ghengis Khan. Our country consists of many ethnic groups, Arabs, Kurds, Azaris, Lors, all of whom, male and female, have their own unique looks, hair types, eye colors, body types, and facial configurations.
Many heterosexual men of European ancestry in high positions in society spend every dime they have to be with an Iranian woman and are often taken by them wherever they see them. I see it happen all of the time. They like the exotic looks of Middle Eastern women very very much irrespective of waist to hip ratio or height or breast size and just love their large eyes and luxurious dark hair and are stupified by them. Note, I am not suggesting that Iranians are the most beautiful people in the world, however, as someone who is actually younger than you and actually bothers to interview and to observe different types of peoples, I have to refute what you say because I cannot find it to be true. Ask some men with European ancestry living in the heart of Los Angeles where Iranians are residing in large numbers what they think of the looks Iranian women or even yet about those Arab/semetic (Jewish) women living there who have prominent noses (those who havent surgically altered their noses in light of living in LA, a rather fashionable place) and angular jaws and the other features that you would describe as more masculine or any ethnic group really???
Isn't the pont of this website to analyze the origins and dimensions for society's aestheic of feminine beauty?why the urge to confine yourself to the box of---am i feminine? you are you. does it really matter?
mariah carey had a dreadful boob job and has a thick middle---how is she feminine? i see naomi has middle of the road-- i think since she is part chinese, her facial features (most notably protruding cheekbones and defined jaw) is due to that east asian ancestry. she said this in an interview---that she is part asian. many jamaicans are. tyson beckford has a similar ethnic background---and looks like the truyly masculine version of her. her body is so muscley--but she is a classically trained ballet dancer so... all i know is in person, she is just glowing and insanely, overwhelmingly delicate and beautiful . she isn't super feminine, but no gisele.
You are right, Amelia. The reason cheekbones are hardly ever showing in the face of children is because of the adequate amount of facial fat that they have. If you look at picture fo children who are starved, you will see their cheekbones and jawlines showing in the same way that fashion models are. Cheekbones become more pronounced with age because of the loss of facial fat, which makes the face look thinner and at even older ages, skin becomes wrinkled.
The thing that makes pronounced cheekbones attractive to some people is the sophistication that is associated with it, it gives even a younger woman a more mature and experienced look than if her face was more roundish or oval. Mr. Holland says my cheekbones are low, but I don't think he took a good look at them. Everyone else says I have the cheekbones of a model, by the way I am not bragging.
Although, high fashion models go through great pains, sometimes unhealthy, oftentimes, to stay as thin as they are, I do find their facial structures to be appealing in some ways. I am taken by the serious looks on their faces and their aloofness. Then again, this is a matter of personal tastte and there are even men out there, heterosexual exclusively, who find women who look this way attractive and they are entitled to do so and no one has any right to label them as having homosexual or bisexual tendencies. Actually, I am happy to know that there are men out there with a variety of tastes and interests as well as women with a variety of tastes.
Actually, in my personal opinion, the modeling world should move towards diversification, which will sell even more to the public because women will begin to look more for the types of clothings and cosmetics that will flatter and bring out the uniqueness of their own look instead of feeling unappreciated because of the prevalence of only one type of look. This is the healthiest approach towards this issue and men will appreciate it as well because their unique tastes will be catered to as well.
Looks like Mr. Holland is making a record for himself here, "swarthy semites" and "Unlike you, whites have no problems telling apart their boys from girls; the problem lies with your deficient perception." Mr. Holland says "whites" as if he can see through the eyes of every white on planet earth.
Mr. Holland, what do you know about norms among European women or Iranian women, who are also recognized as Caucasian, or Semitic people or Sub Saharan Africans????
Can you use people's testimonies here to make your point instead of your own statements and prove that there are others out there who appreciate your site? No, you can't and simply make a mindless statement about how people who disagree are more likely to comment than those who agree, thinking that we are all naive enough to believe that. As a visitor to many many websites, political, religious, fashion, you name it, every time I observed people's comments those who appreciate the contents of a website always thank the person who created it and express their gratitude and those who did not appreciate or disagreed left their input as well. This is the only website I have ever visited that has had so many opponents posting comments, and almost entirely no supporters. Where are your supporters, Mr. Holland? Who are they? Have you deluded yourself into thinking you have any? Where are you heterosexual male supporters who appreciate your attempt to promote "feminine beauty" and to "create public awareness about the trends of unhealthy looking, masculine high fashion models" and how gays are repsonsible for the spread of anorexia and a poor body image?
You think Naomi Campbell is MASCULINE?! Wow, you really ARE blind. And please quit calling women "transvestites." You are so rude and mean. There are people who naturally look like models and I know damn well you're hurting their feelings with such comments.
Um, what is "fake femininity"? And in my opinion, all the women on this page are beautiful in their own ways. I love the variety: thin, curvy, thin and curvy, etc. I especially like Dana. :D But, please stop calling Heidi Klum "mannish." I have only seen ONE guy who has her body shape and he was like 17. Since most people wouldn't mistake her for male, she's not "mannish."
Kristin: I am surprised by your accusation that my definition of femininity centers around Northern European women. You left a bunch of comments in this entry and could not have missed my repeated criticism of “d’Artagnan” for employing the supposedly “classical concept of femininity” where, say, shorter height or smaller nose equals more feminine regardless of ancestry. I repeatedly emphasized the necessity of controlling for ancestry. For instance, concerning the elements you pointed out, controlling for ancestry, masculinization makes the nose more prominent and also broader, the hips narrower and the buttocks flatter. Therefore, when white women have more prominent but also narrower noses as well as flatter buttocks but also wider hips than sub-Saharan African women, then how could these elements be used to assign greater femininity to one or the other group, and how would it be possible to say that Northern European women are lacking point blank from the perspective of sub-Saharan Africans? Here is another entry where you left a comment, and undoubtedly read my explanation as to why a broad-faced Central European woman, Nikky Case, is feminine notwithstanding her sharp jawline and squared face; I asked the reader to consider ancestry when judging. I would not use Northern European norms to judge other European populations, let alone non-Europeans, yet you come up with your comment! Unlike you, whites have no problems telling apart their boys from girls; the problem lies with your deficient perception.
Your comment appears to have stemmed from my telling Aileen that she looks more masculine than the norm for European women, but I don’t think you know how she looks or else you would not doubt it.
Kristin: There is more to this site than what you mention. Some women are interested in how masculine or feminine they are, and as long as I am not overwhelmed by questions such as the other commentator’s, I will answer them.
Anon: You are getting the hang of it...judging how masculine or feminine a woman is should be based on overall appearance, and the overall face shape of Nikky Case is feminine. The point is not deciding what carries more weight, but noting the fact that the processes underlying masculinization-feminization are only partly shaping physical features. Factors other than sex hormones contribute to a masculine or feminine look. Therefore, if in a given person multiple features, distributed over many parts of the body, suggest femininity but few features suggest masculinization, then the appropriate conclusion is femininity and that the masculine-looking elements do not represent masculinization but other factors instead.
in pic 1 and 3 she is wearing a padded bra. in pic 2, there is serious airbrushing. i know because i learned in school how to digitally alter pics.
i know the bras are padded cuz they are from victoria secret--the angel and desire line(i think, but search for the original pics)-- find them on the website. they explain they are padded.
Kristin: You mentioned that Halle Berry had a 21-inch waist in the movie Catwoman. Now that I have cited two pictures of her from this movie, you say that airbrushing, studio lighting and posing tricks have been used to make her look less feminine. How do you know this? And why would someone do this? The comic character that the movie is based on is supposed to have a very feminine physique. For some strange reason the director cast a non-white woman as Catwoman, but why would anyone want to make her look less feminine? The small pictures you cited are too obscure, and in the big ones it looks like a corset is being used to squeeze her mid-section. Regarding the stated waist measurements of fashion models, there may be an unwritten industry rule to lie in a specified manner, but unless there is proof, this will remain mere speculation; these women may not have narrow waists in front view, but in side view they are very narrow because of little body fat.
Laurie: I already gave you a basis: Maria McBane’s physique. Your physique is unlikely to look as dramatic as hers given her 5-inch smaller waist circumference. Obviously, a narrower mid-section will present a more notable hourglass effect.
Anon: The extent of body is fat is obviously relevant to presenting a feminine look. Gaining an inch on the waist is not a problem if you correspondingly gain an appreciable amount of fat in your breasts and other places relevant to femininity.
What I find funny is that MANY women would like high cheekbones because it adds structure to your face. And also, high cheekbones can be attributed to your ethnic heritage, such as African or Native American. Does that mean it makes a person inherently masculine? No.
What I think Mr. Holland needs to do is restructure his site to really put the focus on the real issue on hand: unhealthy body depictions. Instead of slamming fashion models for being less than women, he should be providing an analysis on why it's unhealthy and what the average woman looks like.
He says that the majority of the population prefers feminine features-- of course they do, when you compare it to Kate Moss or Twiggy! The average person would rather see healthy body figures represented than unhealthy below normal BMI range figures. He also fails to address some rather obvious things regarding facial features and bone structure:
1. Perhaps the reason why so many fashion models have high, pronounced cheekbones is because their lack of body fat? If you have less than the normal range, your facial bone structure will become more obvious, rather if you were within a healthy range and had "padding" on your face.
2. Perhaps the reason why so many fashion models look like adolescent boys-- which IS frighteningly true-- is because their lack of fat consumption caused their secondary sex characteristic development to become stunted? I know that one theory behind why so many female gymnasts are shorter than average is because while they are mostly muscle, their lack of fat consumption and body fat content caused them to have lower estrogen levels, and biology shows us that estrogen plays a vital role in bone growth. And if a model restricts herself to a diet ill-fitted for her natural body figure (whether it may be a heavier figure, hourglass, or nonhourglass), her body will not grow properly. There are various theories regarding female puberty development, but one strong indicator is body fat content. It isn't so much the hourglass figure that makes a woman look feminine, but body fat, which adds softness and curves to a woman's figure in contrast to the sharp angles of a man. Don't eat much fat or have fat on you? Well you'll have angles instead. Now whether or not those angles are NATURAL is where the real problem lies-- many fashion models cannot be that thin naturally.
3. Only a professional doctor, after running various tests and a medical examination, can determine whether or not a person has "more or less" of estrogen/feminine hormones or testosterone/masculine hormones. To assume that a person has significantly more of one than the other based on their looks is ignorant and a poor use of science. Each individual is different in their biological makeup and only a doctor can determine that.
Erik, please stop trying to force your opinions of femininity onto everyone. You are not an expert on femininity. Femininity is SUBJECTIVE. It CAN'T be studied. Hell, anyone who is a woman is "feminine" technically. How the hell can you say a woman is not feminine? That's like saying a car is not a mode of transportaion. And what's with all your talk about white women having a more feminine shape? What? The most curvy people I've seen were African American and Latina. Hell, a lot of white girls I've seen have NO shape at all, let alone a feminine waist-to-hip ratio.
People know what's beautiful, okay? You can't teach them what's beautiful. You continuously call women "male transvestites" and "transsexuals" and that's so completely and utterly dumb and insulting. Hell, with some transsexual women, you can't even TELL they were born men. Oh and I could see the difference between Alessandra and the "average girl." Especially when it came to the body. The "average girl's" body actually looks more "masculine" than Alessandra's at some angles.
But, yeah. Just because you like certain women and just because you've done "tests" doesn't mean you're right. No one's preferences are going to change just because you don't like celebrities or models. Everyone isn't shaped like your dream girls, so don't make fun of them. They are beautiful in their own ways. The fact that beauty is so diverse (skinny girls, curvy girls, big girls) makes the world all the more awesome. And about the "average girls" you say most guys look over, those are the girls that most guys get! They're not going to get the celebrity or the model. Hello? As I said before, beauty can't be taught. You continuously talk about people being shallow and such about beauty and skipping over the "real" beauty, but you're being shallow and choosy yourself. That's so hypocritical. How about you celebrate ALL the different types of beauty? Or is that so hard?
This site really pisses me off. I don't understand how you can call such beautiful women ugly and masculine...they have made names for themselves because they are so beautiful. Different men like all different kinds of women, and you cannot say that YOUR opinion is the opinion of MOST men, because I can assure you every single man I have ever met, including my own father (who is a "lifetime exclusive heterosexual male") find them attractice! They are beautiful, just get over it and stop criticizing them! How would you like it if someone made a website criticizing you and every flaw on your body?? The models are not attacking anyone, but everybody seems to attack them for just being skinny. And Alessandra Ambrosio does NOT have breast implants. Do some damn research before you claim these kinds of things. FYI, Victorias Secret bras can do AMAZING things...they can make a B Cup look like a large C, which is what they do with Alessandra. Don't hate on her for being naturally small chested. I am a B Cup, so are you going to call me unattractive and masculine, because I don't have huge boobs? There are all kinds of body types out there...all kinds of shapes. And not everybody is an hourglass shape, and I dont think that people should try to look some way that they arent. No matter how much weight some people gain gain or lose, they are not going to look that way, because it isnt natural for them. Stop making gross generalizations, like "real heterosexual" men hate supermodels, and "real" women are hourglass and can't have strong features. Because being a woman, I can tell you that Alessandra looks very classy to me, I wouldnt mind looking like her :) But those women you posted are the kind that show up on those internet porn sites. No man or woman goes on those sites to admire their bodies or beauty, they are looking at in an animalistic fashion, just at the sex acts going on or the suggestive poses. Which is okay, that is the point of porn. But those women arent on the internet because they are anything special, they are just the ones willing to post naked pictures!
Ah that is a mouthful :)
But really this site is very insulting to me, because you are making generalizations that frankly arent true.
Hi Amelia.
One of the most profound hourglass shapes recognized among women in Hollywood was that of the olive skinned Italian actress Sophia Loren who was approximately my height, 5'8' and also had relatively broad shoulders and robust high cheekbones. She was recognized by the international community as the most beautiful woman in the world and pictures of her can be found on the internet in a variety of attires, even partially nude.
Mr. Holland appears not to be a fan of women who manage to be successful and famous regardless of their looks, because he even ruled out another beautiful Italian actress, Monica Belucci, as having looks impressive enough to be used as an example of feminine beauty. With respect to Sophia Loren, he suggested that her "abnormal cheekbones" ruled her out as an example of feminine beauty when in fact many women have requested to have cheekbones like hers from plastic surgeons.
Either way, regardless of how much you get into it with him about hourglass shapes or anything else for that matter, the simple fact appears to be that he just has an issue with most of the women in today's world and those who have come further than the teenaged nude girls whose pictures he has used as examples of feminine beauty, most of whom appear silly, naive, and not even developed physically. Note I am just hypothesizing again and say "appears to be," and Mr. Holland can prove me wrong.
Amelia, you are right, Mr. Holland does contradict himself at least several times and the more he is under pressure from people who respond to him, the more illogical he sounds.
Yours Truly
It seems that Mr. Holland is taking his sweet time when outdebated himself to fluff up his responses. I hope he does some serious thinking first and may be forced to do so. Take care girls and Charly. I will just tell you one thing. As much as we can expose a person and his/her intentions due to the fact that he/she is so obvious, most things do speak for themselves.
Stay smart, ladies.
I wouldn't go so far as to demand Erik's pictures, but once again, he fails to address the REAL issue: comparing healthy body figures (which includes more than just the hourglass) versus unhealthy (fashion model waifness).
Though cs has a point, I would also like to see if Erik falls into the "true" perspective of manliness and masculinity.
Erik...could you please put up a picutre of your self up on this web site? I would like to have a good go at your looks and body shape. Further, I need to determine if you are masculine enough to be able to make the comments you do about women.
If you would be kind enough to do as I have requested then I would be able to marginalize you in equal measure.
I could suggest certain exercises and dietary constraints for you to achieve my own personal ideal of maleness.
Afterall, we all know, there is nothing more to a woman than their looks or their body shape.
I also wanted to mention one last thing-- perhaps you should redefine your definition of what an hourglass is. If you look at real hourglasses, you'll notice that some have "nipped in" middles, whereas others have sloping lines to the centers. Some women have very sloping lines, and some women have nipped in waists. It's really a matter of how you choose to define it.
I can't believe you actually used to word "swarthy". Being of East Indian ancestry, I really despise that word and have been called that one too many times.
You said:
" 1. This site is not about achieving an hourglass figure; it is about promoting women with these figures among models and beauty pageant contestants; read the solutions page for how one could go about it."
I agree with your solutions, yes. However, you continue to imply very subtley throughout the site what a "true" female body should look like, such as with a caption above the two nude girls saying "what a feminine body should look like". You say this site is about promoting women with more diverse figures, yet the focus of your site appears to debase women who do not have those figures, and even women who are naturally thin. And then you point out that women should strive to achieve the ideal.
" 2. This site does address body image/self-esteem issues and also exercise. "
Yes it does so credit will be given where it's due. Again, very little of the site is devoted to that and a casual reader of the site would probably get lost in the anti-fashion model aspects instead of coming across the healthier topics.
" 3. I don’t want women to do anything with their facial features; read point #1 again."
Yet you continue to have information regarding facial structure and what a "true feminine" face should look like. In all honesty, put yourself in a woman's shoes and look at this from her perspective-- how do you think that would make her feel, along with the many other women who have gotten that impression?
" 4. There is no argument here that only hourglass figures are feminine; see, for instance, Table 1 on the page addressing body image/self-esteem issues. Do I need to promote awareness of the variety of looks among women? The very suggestion is ridiculous; the typical person has already seen a wide variety of looks among women. "
No actually that suggestion is not ridiculous. You seem to be contradicting yourself! First, you say that you want to see modeling and pageants incorporate "feminine" bodies instead of rail-thin Nicole Richie (which I don't disagree with) but you then insist that the suggestion is ridiculous? Suggesting, or more like assuming, that the average person has already seen a variety of looks is ridiculous. Depending on where you live in the country and how you are exposed to things really determines whether or not you have seen a variety of looks. I met a girl from california recently at school who went to a fashion show where an Indian girl was a model. The girl from california said she was "really surprised" to see that fashion shows would actually consider diversifying their models.
"5. I am part of the problem by propagating beauty myths to dispel beauty myths?"
It's exactly what Dove is doing. Don't get me wrong, I get their message but it's always what the media does with beauty-- uses one myth to take down the other. Such as with their "real women have curves". What if you are naturally and healthily thin, and don't have much of curves? Are you perhaps, not a real woman? It's what you're arguing here-- that "real femininity" is about being an hourglass figure in order to combat the Nicole Richie look. You don't need an hourglass to do that-- all you need is a healthy body.
"What is this? I have no problems accepting “real” women. The Gods have created great diversity, and presumably for good reasons. However, this does not mean that women should be picked at random for modeling purposes or as beauty pageant contestants or that people should not find some specific look more appealing than others. When feminine women are needed, feminine ones should be used, and beauty pageants should be about high aesthetic standards just as the Olympics are about high sporting standards. What is unreasonable about this?"
There is nothing unreasonable about aesthetic standards needing to be used, but a matter of how "high" of standards. Take a look (which you already know) at the "high" standard of thinness is doing to women. In the 80's, a sample size for a model was a 6 or an 8-- which is still a healthy, thin size. Now it's a 0 and a 2-- how much smaller will it get? What I'm trying to say is, if you really believe that the hourglass is *the way* to go, what are women going to end up doing to themselves in order to acheive it? Do you really want to see women disfiguring themselves with corsets again? Why can't ALL body shapes be acceptable to appeal to a greater audience of women? You'd think that would be common sense from a marketing and business standpoint, but once again, many designer clothes are for the elite.
I want to point out that I do agree with many parts of your website-- awareness regarding eating disorders, allowing healthier figures into modeling, etc. But unfortunately, all of that gets lost in your "the hourglass figure is the feminine figure" arguments and insinuations.
How on earth are women supposed to strive for a figure that they weren't born with? I'm 5'5" and I lost 30 pounds and I am not fat, but by no means am I an hourglass figure. I have a "nipped in" waist with broad shoulders, a big ribcage, a big bust and narrow hips. How am I supposed to strive for an hourglass figure? I'm just glad that I still have the self-esteem to be happy for once in my life regarding the way I look, and that I can fit into size 5 pants. I'm not "hot" but I've been told here and there that I'm cute-- I have an oval shaped face, a small chin, but a sorta big nose (I'm east Indian, it happens) and medium-sized eyes. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to possibly strive for a more "feminine" face, or how any woman is supposed to.
Why can't women be allowed to determine what really is "feminine" and beautiful? You'd be surprised how many more women would be happier with themselves and have better self-esteem is for once, a man could just step down and stop trying to mold a cookie-cutter for something that he himself is not a part of.
I'm not saying I don't appreciate the GOOD efforts you have done-- but you are going about it in the wrong way and have NO idea about the amount of discouragement you're putting out there to so many women.
"swarthy semites,"
Mr. Holland, do you even pay attention to your choice of wording. Here is the wikipedia definition of the word swarthy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swarthy
Swarthy is a term sometimes used to describe the complexion of individuals with dark skin pigmentation. The term is generally used informally and can be racially offensive. It is traditionally used to identify people of East Mediterranean origin.
In the United States, the term is increasingly used as slang for Indian Americans and Middle Easterners, but may be used to identify Southern Europeans and Hispanics
Erik
My point is from what i see when i stare at nicky case she clearly has a square jaw which immediately makes me think masucline this is just with reference to the facial/jaw structure however considering her other features i.e nose shape, lips, eyes etc...her whole face does have a feminine look but when staring at her jaw alone it clearly says masucline. But yes i agree her face overall is feminine looking. But on what basis do you decide that facial features i.e nose shape, lips etc... are more important with reference to femininety than say facial structure?
Erik
when im slim as in very slim my waist measures around 25 inches however the more weight i gain my waist measurment slightly increases its now 26 inches so basically what your saying is the dramaticness of an hourglass figure can be changed through weight gain or weight loss ofcourse the physical bpody sturcture itself not being able to change.
Erik
you still did not answer my question on what basis do you come to this conclusion? what factual evidence? is it just a case of a 24 inch waist looks more like an hourglass figure?
Also, Mr. Holland, when you make a website such as this one and leave room for comments by the general public (domestic and international) you need to acknowledge as a mature adult man that you cannot use belittling terms to describe the interests peoples of different sexual orientations (gays/bisexuals/etc), political ideologies (feminists/etc), and professions (psychologists/etc) in a community (domestic and international) that is rapidly moving towards diversification and toleration of differences. Regardless of what your commentors, who are not repsonsible for the contents of your website and the assertions that you make are saying to you and their choice of words, you need to be wary of your choice of words as a credible analyst/scientist if you do not want to lose respect in the eyes of those who observe your works.
You say that opponents are more likely to leave comments than supporters, but we all know Mr. Holland, that the fact of the matter is quite different and you need to work around that.
Hello Mr. Holland, if I am writing under different aliases such as Raymond and Maria then perhaps you are also writing under the alias of Sandy and are actually attempting to sound like an inteligent woman who agrees with some of what you say and then use her as an example to prove your point. I am just hypothesizing
Good thing that you appreciate women having self esteem. I am happy to hear that, its one of the best things I have heard from you so far. I am also happy to see that you are learning to work around people's arguments instead of repeating the same thing over and over again because it is quite evident that you are under a great deal of pressure of what people are posting here and have very forwardly presented yourself as a person who has no liking for what feminists stand for, for the practice of psychology as a science, for "pathetic homosexuals...." (how could I be Raymond, I thought that he is a pathetic homosexual)
Also, may I ask how many heterosexual men from my ethnic group, which consists of tens of millions of individuals, have you interviewed as to what their particular aesthetic preferences are and also how many heterosexual men of European ancestry have you interviewed with which you have come to the conclusions that you have????? True, I have no problem attracting many heterosexual men in my own ethnic group who are absolutely taken by my looks and also, interestingly, I find that a lot of men with European ancestry wind up staring at me head to toe as well as my face when they are with whom you would describe as their more feminine looking European ancestry girlfriend. My current boyfriend from work is Russian and there are so many Russian girls that he has ruled out to be with me.
For the record, Iranians are not semites. Iranians are Indo Europeans and are Caucasian. We are geographic neighbors of semetic peoples such as the Arabs and the original sephardic Jews and the phoenicians (current day Lebanese people who some authentic Arab ancestry but have looks very similar to southern Europeans), but we are not semites,only have some slight semitic ancestry as a result of Arab-Iranian fusion. A great many of us also have East Indian, African (more towards the south of Iran),Eastern European ancestry, and even some East Asian ancestry as a result of interbreeding with Mongolians when attacked by Ghengis Khan. Our country consists of many ethnic groups, Arabs, Kurds, Azaris, Lors, all of whom, male and female, have their own unique looks, hair types, eye colors, body types, and facial configurations.
Many heterosexual men of European ancestry in high positions in society spend every dime they have to be with an Iranian woman and are often taken by them wherever they see them. I see it happen all of the time. They like the exotic looks of Middle Eastern women very very much irrespective of waist to hip ratio or height or breast size and just love their large eyes and luxurious dark hair and are stupified by them. Note, I am not suggesting that Iranians are the most beautiful people in the world, however, as someone who is actually younger than you and actually bothers to interview and to observe different types of peoples, I have to refute what you say because I cannot find it to be true. Ask some men with European ancestry living in the heart of Los Angeles where Iranians are residing in large numbers what they think of the looks Iranian women or even yet about those Arab/semetic (Jewish) women living there who have prominent noses (those who havent surgically altered their noses in light of living in LA, a rather fashionable place) and angular jaws and the other features that you would describe as more masculine or any ethnic group really???
Isn't the pont of this website to analyze the origins and dimensions for society's aestheic of feminine beauty?why the urge to confine yourself to the box of---am i feminine? you are you. does it really matter?
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