i asked a question before, (the 18 yr old). sorry if it's trivial.
u said that my hips would get wider. do u mean that in the skeletal sense? or will just they become wider because more fat will be deposited there as i get older?
There is a question I would like to pose with respect to the so-called "masculinized women" being more likely to attract men who are more likely to have bisexual tendencies or whatever it is that Mr. Holland has chosen to describe their tendencies as and has thereby made the faulty generalization.
Are "masculinized" supermodels, movie actresses, and other famous women whose looks Mr. Holland would describe as masculine at a greater risk of catching AIDS and other STDS because of the types of men that are attracted to them, some of whom consist of men in high professions such as medicine, show business, engineering, law, or the so-called "feminine" women whose pictures Mr. Holland has placed here, some of whom are just vulgar and heinous and no one would give them a second look even in day-to-day life and of course. I recall reading some of what Mr. Holland had to say about these so-called feminine women as to why they could only be found in amateur porn and nude model sites and he said that because of the lack of attention paid to them by the elites, they have to sleep their way to the top?????? I ask everyone here who is more likely to catch an STD????
Even with respect to men, Mr. Holland has boldly made the assertion that heterosexual men have low standards for casual sex and so can one conclude that so-called "exclusively heterosexual" men, like Mr. Holland himself, are more likely to harbor a wide range of STDs because of their preferences for the types of women that are ignored by the elites and are therefore forced into prostitution to make their way to the top????? Having low standards for casual sex extends to having low standards for looks as well as for health....
Look at a picture of one Mr. Holland's examples of feminine women, a slimy looking girl standing half naked next to a Christmas tree with a cheap hair cut, and of course what do u see on the Christmas tree, her thong as an ornament. Looks like the opening of a porno movie and of course there is often no protection used. The girls are at any man's immediate disposal and are used like toilet paper.
Good choice all you so-called "masculinized" women,even if your looks are by Mr. Holland's standards on the manly side. You associate yourself with the cream of the crop and like other famous women you value your life and health too much to die of aweful diseases by reducing yourselves to nothing with the likes of slimy, chauvenistic men. I love all of you. Stay great the way you are.
I found this entry to be interesting since I just officially measured myself for the first time today (my prom is coming up and I needed to shop for a dress).
Anyways, I am 17 years old, and I have more of a small and petite figure. I'm 5'1, and weigh somewhere between 87 to 91 pounds, as it fluctuates a lot. I measured myself today but I'm not exactly sure if I got the correct measurements since I used a measuring tape that's for constructing, and not one of those cloth ones that are typically used when measuring your body. I was also unsure if you were supposed to measure loosely or tightly?
Well these were my measurements I got: 30-23-31.
Just out of curiosity.. would that be considered more rectangular or hourglass? I did the calculations and my waist to hip ratio is about 0.74. I would say I was more in the middle, but I'm not too sure.
Of course, some of what I say gets into politics, now we have a controversial state called Israel as a result of so many Ashkenazi Jews. Quite interesting........
Furthermore, by assuming that my ancestry is largely semetic and in falsely doing so, and by saying that "my kind is not admired the world around" you must accept that you are implying that Arab and Jewish women, here I am implying the Sephardic Jews, not the Ashkenazi Jews, are less attractive than women with more European ancestry. This itself is racially offensive and would like to see an Arab woman's response one day to what you are saying about her looks, though I myself, as an Iranian, consider myself an Arab in any way or identify with the ethnic category of Arabs.
My native language is Farsi and in my family there are people with a variety of looks and appearances. Some of family members actually are on the fair skinned side with hazel, green, and blue eyes. My mother is by no means semetic looking and neither is my father and there is very little probability that I would be considered semetic. Skin tones in Iran range mainly range from medium to darker tones of olive to rather fair or lightly tanned skin tones and I fall under the category of light olive with strong tanning potential. A select few are pinkish white mainly Iranians that originate from the North or are still living in the North and another select few are very dark, somewhat brownish, which predominate in the south of Iran of course mainly due to climatic conditions. Again, the word "swarthy" is an inappropriate term because it is clear that it has often been used to demean people.
If semetic women are not attractive, Mr. Holland, then why is there so much literature dedicated to white men's attraction to Jewish women during Medeival Europe, a time during which people were even more conservative about what feminine and masculine are, and why is it now that Jewish people consist of more than just the original Jews; the Ashkenazi jews are actually hardly semetic in ancestry in today's world. The Ashkenazi Jews have a large number of white, blue eyed and blonde people among them some of them who would meet your definition of feminity and some who would not. Obviously there were a large number of European men out there who found the looks of a Middle Eastern more appealing and exotic than that of the native European woman and therefore there was interbreeding among them and they were even willing to change their religion to be among these people who were living as minorities in exile.
Mr. Holland, if you are referring to the Zoroasterian Persians who fled Iran to India, known as the Parsees and are making such presumptuous suggestions that Amelia knows what they look like just because she claims to have East Indian ancestry, is really a reflection of your ignorance and lack of attention to what people are actually saying to you.
The Parsees living in India today are heavily heavily mixed with the Indian population, most of whom have some of the darkest features found anywhere in the world and actually, they are darker than the mainstream population of Iranians found in Iran today. Actually, Indian people are Indo European as well, most tend to be rather dark skinned with a select few having lighter skin, hair, and eyes, and rather taller and more developed in stature. Being caucasian, first and foremost, has nothing to do with skin tone either. Iranians are predominantly Caucasion irrespective of hair types, stature, skin tone, eye color and so are East Indians.
I don't think you have taken a good look at semetic peoples, Arabs and Jews in order to make judgements as to which people have more semetic ancestry. The original Arabs that originated in present day Yemen and moved into present day Saudi Arabia have absolutely no resemblence to 95% of Iran's population as diverse as they are in skin tone, hair color, eye color, and body configurations. We actually have a small arab minority leaving in the desert areas in the south western portion of Iran, but that is where they are and their culture and language are their own. They have no mixing with the rest of us.
Mr. Holland, you and I both know that if I didnt even bring up the subject of Iranians, you wouldnt have even did your last minute homework on the subject that I presented and its clear that you still are lacking sufficient knowledge on subjects that you are not in a position to talk about. Research a subject thoroughly before discussing it. Ask any anthropologist as to whether or not Iranians are Indo European or not and then come up with these off the wall assertions.
Camile does have a rather unpleasant looking face, in my opinion, small eyes, an aweful looking nose, compared to the finely chizeled nose of alessandra, and those cheap looking thin eyebrows.
I recently had a nose job, and actually wished my nose could have been as finely chizeled as Alessandra's, but I guess there is a limit to what a plastic surgeon can accomplish. At any rate, I had once commented on how Iranians are big fans of cosmetic surgery, namely nose jobs because that is the one area on which they try to acquire a more Europeanized look, the noses tend to be rather acquialine, which is a shame on the part of Iranians who can't accept their particular nasal configurations, but its a reality nonetheless. However, tall women, even as tall as 6 feet are considered attractive and so are long necks because they are a less common feature in a country whose citizens are mostly short. Some of us Iranians think that we are the most beautiful women in the world because of the structure of our eyes and and wideset eyebrows, which many do agree, but again, I will say it is just an opinion, not necessarily a reflection of every person's taste.
Actually another common surgery among many women, not just Iranians who are also fans of it, is cheek augmentation through which they attempt to acquire higher, more prominent looking cheekbones, those resembling that of many famous female celebrities, models included.
The simple fact that Mr. Holland was not under the impression, as he so claimed, that Iranians are as much into cosmetic surgery as they are now, is a clear indication that he does not know what beauty is for different people. For example, it would be worthwhile to research what type of cosmetic operation is most common among today's generation of Japanese women in Japan in order to draw conclusions about their particular aesthetic preferences.
In the US, the most popular cosmetic surgeries are liposuction and breast enhancement given the high numbers of overweight people and the popularity of having large breasts.
These are all fascinating subjects for me and I would love to explore them in greater depth with individuals who are also interested in them.
I have left comments on another thread and am always happy to come across people who like to discuss the subjects of beauty, fashion, and aesthetics and all that pertain to these.
Like several visitors of this site, I am equally disturbed by Mr. Holland's borderline racially offensive rhetoric, namely his use of the word "swarthy" in an attempt to describe ethnic groups with relatively darker shades of skin and his bold assertion that women with more European (and he just uses the broad term European as if it is homogeneous in some of what he says and contradicts what he says before when he says that Europeans have the most variety) features are more admired than women with fewer or no European features at all because of the increased femininity that comes with having more European ancestry. Based on this logic, one would have to conclude that men with European ancestry are more likely to be feminine than men with less European ancestry, which of course is an absurd conclusion, but this is the only conclusion that can be reached based on Mr. Holland's assertions.
He furthermore attempts to tell people about their own racial composition and the racial composition of their native countries when he is in fact no visitor to those countries and his comments make it evident that he has a poor method of categorizing people.
I really like to share my views regarding the modeling industry and enjoy corresponding with others who are interested in this subjected. Below I have copied and pasted my views.
I am always pleased to meet different people on the net and to read their views regarding the issues of beauty, fashion, and aesthetics and was equally disturbed by this site as many visitors are and find it distasteful that an adult man would result to borderline racially offensive rhetoric to make his point by using such terms as "swarthy" to describe people with relatively darker shades of skin and to imply that women with more European features are more internationally admired than women with other ethnic features given also the fact that his knowledge is very limited regarding different ethnic groups and attempts to tell people more about what their own ethnic heritage is. Though Mr. Holland is entitled to his views and so are others who share them, they must have the courtesy to present their views as merely opinions, not as the formulaic and scientific standard of what beauty is.
My email is eval(unescape('%64%6f%63%75%6d%65%6e%74%2e%77%72%69%74%65%28%27%3c%61%20%68%72%65%66%3d%22%6d%61%69%6c%74%6f%3a%73%61%68%6e%65%5f%67%68%61%73%68%61%6e%67%40%79%61%68%6f%6f%2e%63%6f%6d%22%3e%73%61%68%6e%65%5f%67%68%61%73%68%61%6e%67%40%79%61%68%6f%6f%2e%63%6f%6d%3c%2f%61%3e%27%29%3b')) and would love to correspond with inteligent, level headed people in exploring the subject of beauty along with all of its applications, meanings, and values that it has for people.
I am copying and pasting something I had left in another thread for visitors about my views regarding the fashion industry and would like to share them with others:
Erik, you ARE trying to say what's beautiful and not. And as I said, beauty is SUBJECTIVE. You keep saying what "most" people like. What about the people in other socieities? In some societies, the most feminine woman is the biggest. What do you have to say to that?
And what about the people in this society who like what you don't? Femininity is, again, SUBJECTIVE.
And you ARE calling women male transvestites if you call models male transvestites (Which is a term for people who get aroused by dressing up. A better word would be "crossdresser." You should know that if you're so smart). Don't try to jump over that one. What, people feel better because you didn't personally point them out? There are people who look like models naturally and I'm sure they'd be deeply hurt hearing someone call someone who looks like them "male transvestites." Not only is that a HEAVY exaggeration (Sorry, but if you ran one of your little "tests" 99.9% of people would recognize that these ladies are women. Oh, and as I said before, all male transsexual don't even look like men and you'd be hardpressed to figure out that they were born male.), but it's obviously hurtful. Unfortunately, you can't see that over your big, "My femininity is the right femininity" head. Oh, and White women being the most feminine is so biased. YOU determined what femininity is and since White women fit your idea of femininity, White women are more "feminine" than other races. Right...
As I said before, why don't we celebrate the beauty of ALL women? Everyone isn't going to be the feminine you like, but they are still beautiful, anyway. I believe that we should have naturally thin women, naturally curvy women, etc. We should show people all the diversity that nature has to offer and show young women that no matter what they're size is, they are beautiful. Your idea of feminine beauty would exclude women who don't fit in it.
Sorry, but even if most guys had a "decent look at her (Alessandra)," they would still find her attractive. Please stop trying to justify that just because YOU are not attracted to something, everyone else isn't or shouldn't be (The greatest insult is to tell a man that something is wrong with him if he's attracted to something you are not). Some guys like women with long necks and broad shoulders. And most people don't notice the "broad ribs" you speak of. Yes, they're don't have any curves, but they are obviously women, not adolescenet boys.
erik-- it is sometimes difficult depending o the pose and lighting of that pic to make a airbrushing look natural. but the airbrushing is extremely obvious. also you have not explained why the pic i showed--which is recent, shows her with a small chest----cuz its not airbrushed!! the girls displayed in fhm and maxim are all airbrushed. it looks fake to me, but men are fooled, so sloppy execution goes by unchided. also the distinct purpose of padded bras is to make the chest seem larger---within clothing. so the push-up effect of the bra cup being stuffed with cloth/gel/liquid is to be expected. and yes, unfortunately victoria secret uses all these materials to enhance chests along with interesting seaming on the bra. maybe you should take a girl friend to their store and witness for your self the transformation.
I completely understand your arguments and the eprspective you are looking at things from. Im not sure if it is because of my own personal dislike for square shaped faces or if is is because objectively there is something about square shaped faces which just strike me as really manlyish and not femineine at all when i look at them. Even in Nicky case's example her overall face/body "looks" feminine to me when i look at her, her face more due to her addditional feminine looking features i.e nose, lips etc...but i still cannot naturally deviate my attention away from her squarish structred jaw when i look at her which just doesnt appeal to me and lessens her overall attractiveness and her femininity for me even though overall she looks feminine. I think sometimes its not as black and white as it may appear to be. I think sometimes one single masucline feature on a body if it is a strong feature like the facial structure it can reduce the look of femininity subjectively even if objectively the person looks feminine "overall".
Mar: As I have replied to you elsewhere, women are not being called male transvestites and transsexuals here; some models and beauty pageant contestants have the looks of male transvestites and male-to-female transsexuals, and pointing this out is simply an accurate description of their looks, which I would normally avoid, but it is necessary within this site. Look carefully at the pictures of Rachel Hunter above and tell me whether she looks like a normal woman. Naomi Campbell looks masculinized; I don't see why anyone would dispute this.
Kristin: As I recall, Mariah Carey did not have a thick middle as a non-overweight young adult. I am not aware of her having gotten breast implants. Even if she did, my recollection of her pictures as a young adult suggest a woman in the normal-to-feminine range.
Mar: Fake femininity is an illusion of femininity achieved via breast implants or posing tricks. A woman does not have to be indistinguishable from a man in order to be called masculinized or manly. Heidi Klum's pictures leave no doubt as to how feminine she is.
Sarah: I have not called Alessandra ugly, but she is evidently masculine and has made a name for herself because she appeals to the gays who dominate the fashion business. Lifetime-exclusive heterosexual men may find her decent looking if they haven’t seen enough of her, but get them to go through this site and see how many find Alessandra attractive. This entry is not about criticizing her flaws, but about pointing out her masculinization. Regarding her breasts, once again go through three pictures of her -- Pic1, Pic2, Pic3 -- and answer the following. Padded bras do make the bust larger, but they do not increase actual breast size. How do you explain her large [actual] breasts in Pic 1? Photoshop or implants or both. Kristin has not answered the question I posed regarding Pic 2, namely that if it represents photoshop work, then why didn’t the artist make her breasts look more natural?
This site is not attacking models but critiquing the people/circumstances responsible for selecting skinny and masculine models. I am not going to call any woman unattractive and masculine because she has a B-cup; women with small breasts can look feminine and attractive (see Table 1 here). This site is not about how women should try to look like. None of the generalizations that you accuse the site of making are being made here. The nude models shown within this site are taken from a variety of sources, many non-pornographic. Most of the nude models in the attractive women section are not porn stars. The nude models selected for various illustrative purposes are selected for their looks, not because there is anything special about them; most nude models will not be shown here because they don’t have the looks that illustrate the arguments being made.
Mar: Physical femininity has been studied and is objectively assessed; go through the feminine vs. masculine page. If curves made a woman feminine, obese women would be the most feminine, but they are more masculine, on average, than normal women. Just as some men being shorter than most women does not undermine the argument that men, on average, are taller than women, the existence of masculinized white women does not undermine evidence that women with the most overall feminine appearance tend to be disproportionately white.
I am not teaching anyone what is beautiful, but pointing out what most people’s idea of beauty is. Women are not being called male transvestites and transsexuals here. Some models and beauty pageant contestants have the looks of male transvestites and male-to-female transsexuals, and pointing this out is simply an accurate description of their looks, which I would normally avoid, but it is necessary within this site. Beauty is diverse and in the form of skinny girls, curvy girls and big girls? Whereas almost all people will be found attractive by at least some, some people are considered attractive by most, and the skinny and obese are not among those that most find attractive. The majority has the right to appreciate what it finds beautiful, and it is high time there were some mainstream outlet for what the majority finds most appealing in the looks of women, namely feminine beauty.
"You are mistaken that the use of women with healthy physiques rather than an hourglass look is sufficient to combat the negative influence of skinny fashion models. Without convincing women at risk for developing anorexia that a competing healthy aesthetic standard is of merit and desired by most people, there will be no significant impact. Feminine beauty is naturally appreciated by most people, and women who are great examples of it are needed to combat the negative effects of skinny fashion models. "
You seem to fail to notice that women fall under a variety of physiques, so by using YOUR standard of what an attractive body looks like, you are continuing the problem. The minute a stenciled standard is set and women are apparently supposed to try to aim for it is the minute problems arise. You constantly try to claim otherwise but continue to contradict yourself.
You know what, you are a man. Simple as that. You don't have a woman's body and you are by no means someone to think that you can determine the standard for women and beauty. This site is just a prime example of men trying to exert patriarchy over women's bodies, in a place they have no business to control. I think I've said enough here and I can't wait to use this site as part of an anti-healthy body image discussion for my abnormal psych class.
Although I admire the looks of Gisele Bundchen, I will go back to my orignal assertion that diversity is much needed by the modeling world. I will explain my personal definition of diversity as I speak of it here.
By diversification, I mean that not only should different racial and ethnic groups be represented in more equal numbers given the fact that the western world in general, European countries, the United States, Canada, some Latin American countries, and Australia are becoming more of a melting pot with a larger and more diverse selection of fans of fashion, clothing, and cosmetics, but also that different body types, which entails different bone structures, heights, proportions, facial configurations be represented. I think in past times and even so today, the modeling world did, in fact, cater to a more specific group of people and the reason many were underrepresented was because of their lack of presence in the realm of show business, fashion, and other forms of media or simply because of their lack of willingness to speak or to express their concern about being underrepresented. At the turn of this century, with the presence of Jennifer Lopez in the music world and some other pear shaped stars, luckily many women can take pride in being pear shaped whereas there was a previously a big stigma attached to it.
In my opinion, the most aesthetically pleasing standard for any woman is what would make any particular woman appear most aesthetically pleasing in her own right, while maintaining her health, both physically and mentally. There is nothing wrong with a woman being unusually thin either in the fashion world as long as the woman is proven to beh healthy and is proven to have a look that is achievable for her particular body type, which can be proven by submitting to a regular physical, which should be used as a standard and if so many supermodels stopped denying to the public that they are, in fact, starving themselves to look the way they do. Also, if a woman simply has a tendency towards having less body fat than some other women she can be used as model for women who are on the thin side.
The problem with the modeling world, I believe, is that women are forced to aspire towards something that is not achievable by all of them and this induces feelings of inadequacy inside of them, which is unhealthy, and can retard personal growth and an appreciation of one's own unique traits and abilities. Actually, I explained this phenomenon to a male friend of mine who is trying to understand women, that in order to have a successful relationship with a woman, every man needs to realize that it is every woman's right to feel beautiful. The modeling world, at this time, is much more limited in its selection of aesthetically pleasing looks. What we need to move towards is a situation in which every woman has a model that she can not only aspire to, but identify with, and who can model clothes, hair styles, and cosmetics for her that flatter her own particular look and not necessarily the look of another.
Also, modelling and fashion need to be treated as works of art, in my opinion. The most credible artist is one who can work with a variety of mediums to produce a eye catching work. There is no reason why male homosexuals would not be able to do this if the status quo shifted a bit.
I forgot to mention that we need models with various skin tones, eye colors, and hair colors in a variety of combinations in order to explore the art of make up and hair color and how it plays into accentuating one's beauty. Women with predominantly European features are not necessarily more aesthetically pleasing on an international level than women with more East Asian, Southeast Asian, East Indian, Middle Eastern (semetic or Indo European), or North African or Sub Saharan African features.
I remember a Vietnamese man in my Communications class saying that he would not ever choose a blonde girl over an Asian because he had a personal affinity for the eye structure of Asian women. Clearly, this indicates that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some men in recent years admit to liking women who are more plumpish whereas when waif like physiques were our only point of reference in the 90s for beauty before the presense of Jennifer Lopez and some other stunningly voluptous celebrities and women, men always used Cindy Crawford as reference point for the emblem of beauty. Though stunningly beautiful and a brilliant artist, most level headed people can say that Cindy Crawford is just one of many versions of what beauty can be.
I always appreciate people's inputs with respect to my ideas. Please feel free to share, but please be respectful.
I just finished observing some photographs of supermodel Gisele Bundchen and must say that on a personal level, I think that she is stunning, though not perfect. Only her nose and chin may need surgical alteration in order to achieve a closer degree of femininity and perfection. Her tall, slender physique, though too slim and emaciated for healthy norms is overall very aesthetically pleasing as well as her facial bone structure. Great skin, hair, and ability to manueaver oneself in a variety of attires...she has these. Of course, she hits it off with superstar Leonardo DiCaprio, then there is something obviously right about her. The titanic hottie that all the girls wanted found himself i the arms of 5'11 supermodel. For her height, her waist to hip ratio of approximately, 0.71 is very good as well as her long sleek legs and not to mention that she actually appears to have naturally voluptuous breast and even they have been surgically altered, I will say that the surgeon should be sought after by all women who are seeking breast enhancement and want to look natural at the same time.
"I am getting tired of having to point out materials within this site that you should have read prior to commenting. What do I know of norms among European women? Read this page for just one example, which describes the outline of the average North American white female and also some other ethnicities; it also presents some data on Iranians. It should be obvious that your face is more masculine looking than the average North American white female’s."
Mr. Holland there is nothing on Iranians or the vast majority of ethnic groups here, you simply have the audacity to place a black woman's picture next to a white woman's picture and make comparisons as to which is more feminine than which and have the audacity also to say that Halle Berry got a nose job to appeal to the tastes of African Americans. Again, you do not represent the opinions of African Americans either because you interview none of them. Furthermore, there is only one random photo shot of Aishwarya Rai and of one other East Indian actress wearing colored lenses where you compare here to a very grotesque looking woman and compare their levels of femininity.
Furthermore, with respect to your rudeness and presumptuousness that I be wary of white, European men who take an interest in me given the higher probability that they have AIDS and other venereal diseases, I would like to let you know that unlike the women you have an apparent liking for (if you can make a judgemnt like that about me then I am most definitely in position to make judgements about you who is nothing more than what others have described as a PE major), I am not the cheap promiscuous type that engages in sexual relations, let alone unprotected sexual relations, with anyone random person who has attraction towards me. Most men earn their way into my life and I am in the business of rejecting 95% of the men who show attraction.
The simple fact that oftentimes I attract the attention of almost every man in the room regardless of what the other females in the room look like is enough indication that I am above average in looks. Can every man in the room have a tendency towards bisexuality and have AIDS and veneral diseases, the probability is very very low. Plus, your comment is useless, it has no meaning and is purely baseless. Its just losers like you that no they do not stand a chance with desirable respectable women and so they make the comments that they do. Your kind is a sad, sorry story. I am not bragging about myself, but have to set you straight in the eyes of others who are offended by you. Even if Amelia or Kirsten or anyone were to see how I looked, they wouldnt think the way you do. I get enough compliments from people at work, in my life, those who come across me on a day to day basis to know that I am special and beautiful. It is clear you do not like women who are happy with themselves and the comments you make towards me are a clear indication. Now, I leave them here for everyone who reads these to see who you are.
Maria mcbanes figure looks normal to me, nothing dramitic about it. Perhaps its because a too narrow waist has the opposite effect it is supposed to have i.e reduce femininity? I mean her waist may look slim and the phsyique and curves may be more noticble but if the waist looks too slim the look would be too fragile, wouldnt a thicker waist measument give a more dramatic look than a too slim waist?
a sorry idiot is a sorry idiot, just ban him. The rest of society has spit on his face and left him with all of these complexes.
These comments that we are posting here, Mr. Holland, no longer even address you, they just expose how narrow minded, lame, and demeaning your comments are when you respond to them. Yet, I still ask, where are your supporters???? You have none. You are a lone wolf, Mr. Holland, that has lost the entire pack. While everyone else out there is enjoying life, and moving forward, you are in your sedentary backward place, boiling with anger because you are a societal reject. Enjoy your life.
You should have enough sense to realize that the word swarthy is not an appropriate term to describe relatively darker shades of skin. I would like you to use that word face to face when speaking to someone in describing them and see the reaction you get. It is clearly not appropriate. By the way, not all semitics are swarthy and neither am I. In fact, anyone who has taken a good look at Arabs and Jews, can tell that my features are not in the least semitic, they are a blend of Slavic and East Indian in appearance. In fact, semetic peoples themselves describe me as such. You have no way of categorizing people. The rest of the world has admired Sophia Loren, Monica Bellucci and some other models whose looks you do not favor, and they do not need your favor either. Obviously, they had something to offer, in terms of looks, class, and reason that you do not and are still used as examples of female beauty.
The fact remains, you have no supporters and have interviewed and spoken to no one about anything to prove your point.
“You say this site is about promoting women with more diverse figures, yet the focus of your site appears to debase women who do not have those figures, and even women who are naturally thin. And then you point out that women should strive to achieve the ideal.”
Talk about remarkable distortion! I am not trying to promote diverse figures, but specifically those that are examples of feminine beauty. There is no argument here along the lines of what a “true” female body should look like; “true” female bodies naturally come in wide varieties. The illustrative examples are supposed to help convey what feminine beauty is supposed to look like. Promotion of feminine beauty does not require debasement of other looks, which this site is not doing; a contrast with other looks suffices to show what is feminine. I have not argued that women should strive to achieve feminine beauty.
Regarding the discussion of self-esteem issues, a website with more than a few pages will not be able to highlight links to all of its pages just about everywhere. It is the responsibility of the reader to go through the site and understand it before critiquing it.
The reason that there is information on facial structure here is because it is needed to show how masculinization and feminization change face shape; without this information, my arguments will be dismissed as subjective. Nobody should infer that this information is provided because I want women to do anything about their facial features.
As far as promoting awareness of variety among women goes, I am not contradicting myself. I want to see more feminine looking women among models and beauty pageant contestants as part of feminine beauty promotion rather than in order to promote awareness of diversity. In this age of global television and the internet, not to mention multiethnic big cities, many people have seen tremendous ethnic diversity in looks; if there is any need to promote awareness of diversity in looks, this site will not concern itself with it.
I am not dispelling beauty myths by promoting the myth that ‘“real femininity” is about being an hourglass figure.’ The argument here is about feminine beauty, not femininity per se. There are feminine women around who are not examples of feminine beauty. An hourglass figure should be considered as a reference standard for feminine beauty; it is not an absolute requirement.
You are mistaken that the use of women with healthy physiques rather than an hourglass look is sufficient to combat the negative influence of skinny fashion models. Without convincing women at risk for developing anorexia that a competing healthy aesthetic standard is of merit and desired by most people, there will be no significant impact. Feminine beauty is naturally appreciated by most people, and women who are great examples of it are needed to combat the negative effects of skinny fashion models. Regarding high standards of feminine beauty, you can rest assured that promoting it will not be corresponding to unhealthy behaviors, as I have already explained under the heading Cosmetic surgery in relation to the promotion of feminine beauty within the page that addresses body-esteem issues. Masculinized women will end up with a distorted or cartoonish figure if they use a corset.
You have again asked “How on earth are women supposed to strive for a figure that they weren’t born with?” Once again, this site is not about what women are supposed to strive for. As far as women being allowed to determine what is feminine and beautiful goes, femininity of physical appearance is not a matter of opinion, as a tremendous amount of data cited within this site shows, and most people share their sense of what constitutes beauty; there is an intrinsic element to aesthetic appreciation that cannot be changed, though there is room for manipulating what some people find beautiful by associating some looks with high status and thereby desirability. As far as women having better self-esteem goes if there were not men around specifying what constitutes feminine beauty, my arguments would not bother you if you did not recognize that the nature of feminine beauty portrayed here represents reality. If I were promoting obese women here, I don’t think that you would be disturbed by this site because the typical person in Western society does not aesthetically appreciate obesity. You are more than welcome to find like-minded individuals (think Aileen) and try to set up a site to define what you feel is feminine and beautiful; I will let my readers know of it when it is done.
Some of the minutiae of aesthetics discussed here are applicable to European women but not other ethnicities. For instance, East Indian women have naturally higher waist-to-hip ratios than European women, on average, and are thereby not required to present the appearance of the hourglass extremes shown within this site to constitute examples of attractive women among their co-ethnics. So why are you bothered? Do not compare yourself to European women.
I need to redefine an hourglass figure? An hourglass approximation is a rough one and in front view only. The pictures/looks speak for themselves; there is no need to attempt mathematical precision.
As far as my neglecting the “real” issue, i.e., comparing healthy physiques to unhealthy ones, or the necessity of focusing on unhealthy body depictions goes, why do I have to keep repeating that the purpose of this site is to promote feminine beauty? Feminine beauty corresponds to health although health does not necessarily correspond to feminine beauty. The primary purpose of this site is not to promote health.
You wrote:
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Instead of slamming fashion models for being less than women, he should be providing an analysis on why it’s unhealthy and what the average woman looks like.
Manly fashion models are not being slammed here; the people/circumstances that have put them in a position of high status are being critiqued. The negative health consequences of fashion imagery featuring skinny women have been extensively addressed on the eating disorders page. The looks of average women have also been addressed, often in the form of numerical data; go through the entire section that addresses aesthetics in international beauty pageants.
When you say that many women would like high cheekbones because it adds structure to the face, you are confusing the height of the cheekbones with their horizontal prominence (which figures into the structure issue). The argument here is not that high cheekbones equals masculine per se. The argument is that masculinization causes a higher placement of the cheekbones on the face.
As to my failure “to address some rather obvious things regarding facial features and bone structure,” here is my reply to your three points:
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1. It is an easy matter to find women with little fat in their faces that nevertheless have much less prominent cheekbones than fashion models; see numerous comparisons here.
2. Female gymnasts do not typically look like adolescent boys notwithstanding your assertion that their dietary practices lead to development under reduced estradiol levels. Besides, success in gymnastics requires a short height, among other things, i.e., short women are selected for among well-ranked gymnasts rather than regular participation in gymnastics being responsible for stunting height. There are plenty of skinny women with feminine skeletal proportions, which prevent them from looking like adolescent boys (example), and it is incorrect to blame the skinniness of high-fashion models alone for their adolescent-boy look. Remember that high-fashion models typically look like adolescent boys when they are recruited for fashion modeling to start with, i.e., it is not that years of fashion modeling is making them look like adolescent boys; just look at newly signed-up fashion model Abbie Gortsema for instance. So body fat makes a woman look feminine and adds curves? Explain why the following women with not much body fat and small breasts come close to satisfying the requirements of an hourglass figure except for the breasts part: 1, 2, 3. Don’t you see the importance of skeletal structure in presenting a feminine appearance and that high-fashion models typically lack a feminine body skeletal structure to start with, which combined with their skinniness and facial masculinization altogether helps them approximate the looks of adolescent boys?
3. There are numerous studies cited here (e.g., see this and this) that relate sex hormone profiles to physical shape variation, easily allowing one to assess who, controlling for ancestry, has more masculine or feminine sex hormone profiles if the overall masculinity-femininity of physical appearance is sufficiently discordant.
It is surprising that you “sometimes wonder why thin is in” when the clear answer is provided here. Contrary to your impression about not-so-skinny fashion models in the 1980s and 1990s as opposed to skinny ones in the 1960s and 1970s, there has been a trend toward increasing skinniness among fashion models from the 1960s onward. You appear to have been mislead by the supermodel phenomenon that characterized part of the 1980s and 1990s. Whereas the supermodels, i.e., the most famous ones, were not super skinny, the norm among high-fashion models was skinny. Please go through and understand this site before critiquing it.
Aileen: I have a bunch of things to do other than working on this site. This is the reason why this site is updated slowly and why it may take me a while to respond. I don’t need days to think over a response. Don’t delude yourself into believing that you are outdebating me. All I see from critics like you is ad hominem, misrepresentations and misunderstanding.
I have IP logs to prove that Aileen, Raymond and Maria are the same person whereas Sandy and I are not. Sandy has also left a bunch of comments around, even before her latest comment within this thread, and reading them should make it obvious that she and I are not the same person. I do not need to be posting comments here using multiple aliases to show that people agree with me; the scientific information and pictures cited are enough to prove my arguments, and your comments, especially as Raymond and Maria, show just what people who disagree with this site have to offer as counter arguments.
Using the expression “Your comment is the kind I get from pathetic homosexuals...” is not to imply that the person is one, but to simply state what kind of men are expected to leave the comment that “Raymond” did. Raymond could be a woman and hence I did not say “A pathetic homosexual like you...” I did not check the IP logs before posting it or else would have realized that it was you.
As far as the self-esteem stuff goes, I discussed it over a month ago, and have never presented arguments along the lines of not caring about women’s self-esteem at all. None of this should be news to those that have bothered to thoroughly go through the site before judging it. I have now started working around people’s arguments? I have not presented myself as a person with no liking for what feminists stand for. Just because I criticize a feminist, i.e., Heather above, it does mean that I have something against feminist demands per se. Neither have I presented myself as someone against the practice of psychology as a science. Psychology is a mixed bag; some of it is science but the rest isn’t. Psychoanalysis, which I critiqued, is not science, and as long as this discipline remains part of psychology, psychology simply cannot be regarded as a science. I don’t believe that I am being careless about my choice of words, but changing the wording used is not going to help improve the respect people have for this site because my arguments are based on data and pictures, not wording. I know you have no respect for this site and so do a number of other people out there, and this cannot be changed by carefully chosen words because people who have no interest in feminine beauty will at best remain indifferent to this site and some others will remain hostile toward the promotion of feminine beauty.
I don’t believe that I have used any belittling terms for...
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...gays and bisexuals (when I talked about pathetic homosexuals, I obviously meant homosexuals who happen to be pathetic rather than that homosexuals are pathetic)...
...feminists (calling Heather a useless feminist is not to imply that all feminists are such)...
...psychologists (psychoanalysts are not the only psychologists; psychoanalysis is a contemptible discipline and needs to go where Freud went; there are many brilliant psychologists around, none practicing psychoanalysis).
Do I need to interview a bunch of white and Iranian men to figure out who would prefer you more? Anyone familiar with the looks of your co-ethnics and white women would know the answer right away after looking at you. My friendly advice to you, again, is to beware of the white men interested in you given your more manly appearance compared to white female norms. Better be safe than sorry; no point in catching venereal diseases or HIV from men on the down-low when plenty of your co-ethnics would be pleased to date you.
I cannot understand why you and Amelia have problems being called swarthy. There is nothing wrong with being swarthy. Poor you got offended by it even though the word is an accurate description of you! On the other hand, you had no qualms coming up with ad hominem to supposedly “out-debate” me and keep coming up with annoying comments such as hypothesizing that I have “an issue against most of the women in today’s world” when I have made it clear that this site is about the looks of models and beauty pageant contestants, not women in general.
As far as the ethnic composition of Iranians goes, I have never implied anything along the lines of Iranians being a mono-ethnic group. Iran has been occupied by diverse groups throughout history, including European tribes, and it shows in the variety of looks found there. However, it has a Semitic element, and people looking at you would think Semite right away. If you believe that Iranians are Indo-Europeans, then a reality check is in order. The Indo-Europeans were a European people than spread from the Russian Caucasus region to a broad region of Europe and as far southeast as India. If you want to see examples of how they looked, search for pictures of the Tarim Basin mummies and note their hair colors, among other features. Also see the hair of this Scythian warrior; the Scythians occupied a broad region ranging from Iran to Mongolia. The original Indo-European looks in Iran are gone and some people close to them driven out by Muslims. If Amelia knew how you looked she would be able to tell that you would not fit among a group of Persians that fled Moslem persecution in Iran and sought refuge in India. They are a light-skinned people with facial features ranging from European to close to European, unlike your dark and Semitic looks. Dark-haired Iranian women with fair skin and European facial features are admired the world over, but not your kind.
Your assertion that I do not appear to be a fan of women who manage to be successful and famous regardless of their looks is nonsense; this site is not about success/fame, but about the looks of models and beauty pageant contestants. So what if Sophia Loren was widely admired? Manly Gisele Bundchen has been described as the most beautiful woman in the world by some authorities, too. Am I to lend credence to what “authorities” have said or consider how these women look? So what if some women aspired to acquire the abnormal-looking cheekbones of Sophia Loren? Some women aspire to acquire the super-skinny looks of high-fashion models even though there is no aesthetic merit in skinniness as far as most people are concerned. Some people will try to acquire some features of famous women, but this does not mean that the desired features are of merit by themselves. Monica Belluci is not added to the attractive women section because she is insufficiently feminine rather than because she is famous.
I am getting tired of having to point out materials within this site that you should have read prior to commenting. What do I know of norms among European women? Read this page for just one example, which describes the outline of the average North American white female and also some other ethnicities; it also presents some data on Iranians. It should be obvious that your face is more masculine looking than the average North American white female's.
Some people have left appreciative comments here, and I have received a number of appreciative emails, too. People who appreciate this site will typically at best be able to come up with a one-liner expressing their appreciation, but most wouldn’t bother whereas the ones disturbed by it would be prompted to leave lengthy comments. This should be intuitive. Anyway, I don’t care if you believe that most people do not appreciate this site. I have some things to do and will do my job regardless of what others think. Who appreciates this site and who doesn’t will become obvious to most in due time.
You must make an effort to understand this site before leaving more comments or else you are not welcome to do so.
Yes you are definately right about the fashion industry providing a more diverse range of looks. I sometimes wonder why thin is in right now--- for the most part, fashion recycles itself-- in the 60's and 70's thin was in, then in the 80's and a good portion of the 90's the "Amazon" models were popular, like Linda Evangelista and Cindy Crawford. So one would expect this to start recycling itself...but it hasn't.
I think one of the problems contributing to this is the amount of attention people with very thing bodies are being given. Not that they should be ignored by any means; but taking a look at eating disorders and the psychology behind them, when you give an undue amount of attention (whatever it may be) to thinness especially anorexia, it actually reinforces the individual to want to become more thin, and thus validating their motivations for being thin, and believing that they actually look healthy.
So instead of slamming the thinness of fashion models, examples providing a greater range of beauty in various heights, body shapes, and musculatures would be helpful in gravitating away from Twiggy's look to a healthier Cindy Crawford-- regardless of the fact that her uppper body is toned.
hello eric
i asked a question before, (the 18 yr old). sorry if it's trivial.
u said that my hips would get wider. do u mean that in the skeletal sense? or will just they become wider because more fat will be deposited there as i get older?
anon
There is a question I would like to pose with respect to the so-called "masculinized women" being more likely to attract men who are more likely to have bisexual tendencies or whatever it is that Mr. Holland has chosen to describe their tendencies as and has thereby made the faulty generalization.
Are "masculinized" supermodels, movie actresses, and other famous women whose looks Mr. Holland would describe as masculine at a greater risk of catching AIDS and other STDS because of the types of men that are attracted to them, some of whom consist of men in high professions such as medicine, show business, engineering, law, or the so-called "feminine" women whose pictures Mr. Holland has placed here, some of whom are just vulgar and heinous and no one would give them a second look even in day-to-day life and of course. I recall reading some of what Mr. Holland had to say about these so-called feminine women as to why they could only be found in amateur porn and nude model sites and he said that because of the lack of attention paid to them by the elites, they have to sleep their way to the top?????? I ask everyone here who is more likely to catch an STD????
Even with respect to men, Mr. Holland has boldly made the assertion that heterosexual men have low standards for casual sex and so can one conclude that so-called "exclusively heterosexual" men, like Mr. Holland himself, are more likely to harbor a wide range of STDs because of their preferences for the types of women that are ignored by the elites and are therefore forced into prostitution to make their way to the top????? Having low standards for casual sex extends to having low standards for looks as well as for health....
Look at a picture of one Mr. Holland's examples of feminine women, a slimy looking girl standing half naked next to a Christmas tree with a cheap hair cut, and of course what do u see on the Christmas tree, her thong as an ornament. Looks like the opening of a porno movie and of course there is often no protection used. The girls are at any man's immediate disposal and are used like toilet paper.
Good choice all you so-called "masculinized" women,even if your looks are by Mr. Holland's standards on the manly side. You associate yourself with the cream of the crop and like other famous women you value your life and health too much to die of aweful diseases by reducing yourselves to nothing with the likes of slimy, chauvenistic men. I love all of you. Stay great the way you are.
Hello.
I found this entry to be interesting since I just officially measured myself for the first time today (my prom is coming up and I needed to shop for a dress).
Anyways, I am 17 years old, and I have more of a small and petite figure. I'm 5'1, and weigh somewhere between 87 to 91 pounds, as it fluctuates a lot. I measured myself today but I'm not exactly sure if I got the correct measurements since I used a measuring tape that's for constructing, and not one of those cloth ones that are typically used when measuring your body. I was also unsure if you were supposed to measure loosely or tightly?
Well these were my measurements I got: 30-23-31.
Just out of curiosity.. would that be considered more rectangular or hourglass? I did the calculations and my waist to hip ratio is about 0.74. I would say I was more in the middle, but I'm not too sure.
Of course, some of what I say gets into politics, now we have a controversial state called Israel as a result of so many Ashkenazi Jews. Quite interesting........
Furthermore, by assuming that my ancestry is largely semetic and in falsely doing so, and by saying that "my kind is not admired the world around" you must accept that you are implying that Arab and Jewish women, here I am implying the Sephardic Jews, not the Ashkenazi Jews, are less attractive than women with more European ancestry. This itself is racially offensive and would like to see an Arab woman's response one day to what you are saying about her looks, though I myself, as an Iranian, consider myself an Arab in any way or identify with the ethnic category of Arabs.
My native language is Farsi and in my family there are people with a variety of looks and appearances. Some of family members actually are on the fair skinned side with hazel, green, and blue eyes. My mother is by no means semetic looking and neither is my father and there is very little probability that I would be considered semetic. Skin tones in Iran range mainly range from medium to darker tones of olive to rather fair or lightly tanned skin tones and I fall under the category of light olive with strong tanning potential. A select few are pinkish white mainly Iranians that originate from the North or are still living in the North and another select few are very dark, somewhat brownish, which predominate in the south of Iran of course mainly due to climatic conditions. Again, the word "swarthy" is an inappropriate term because it is clear that it has often been used to demean people.
If semetic women are not attractive, Mr. Holland, then why is there so much literature dedicated to white men's attraction to Jewish women during Medeival Europe, a time during which people were even more conservative about what feminine and masculine are, and why is it now that Jewish people consist of more than just the original Jews; the Ashkenazi jews are actually hardly semetic in ancestry in today's world. The Ashkenazi Jews have a large number of white, blue eyed and blonde people among them some of them who would meet your definition of feminity and some who would not. Obviously there were a large number of European men out there who found the looks of a Middle Eastern more appealing and exotic than that of the native European woman and therefore there was interbreeding among them and they were even willing to change their religion to be among these people who were living as minorities in exile.
Mr. Holland, if you are referring to the Zoroasterian Persians who fled Iran to India, known as the Parsees and are making such presumptuous suggestions that Amelia knows what they look like just because she claims to have East Indian ancestry, is really a reflection of your ignorance and lack of attention to what people are actually saying to you.
The Parsees living in India today are heavily heavily mixed with the Indian population, most of whom have some of the darkest features found anywhere in the world and actually, they are darker than the mainstream population of Iranians found in Iran today. Actually, Indian people are Indo European as well, most tend to be rather dark skinned with a select few having lighter skin, hair, and eyes, and rather taller and more developed in stature. Being caucasian, first and foremost, has nothing to do with skin tone either. Iranians are predominantly Caucasion irrespective of hair types, stature, skin tone, eye color and so are East Indians.
I don't think you have taken a good look at semetic peoples, Arabs and Jews in order to make judgements as to which people have more semetic ancestry. The original Arabs that originated in present day Yemen and moved into present day Saudi Arabia have absolutely no resemblence to 95% of Iran's population as diverse as they are in skin tone, hair color, eye color, and body configurations. We actually have a small arab minority leaving in the desert areas in the south western portion of Iran, but that is where they are and their culture and language are their own. They have no mixing with the rest of us.
Mr. Holland, you and I both know that if I didnt even bring up the subject of Iranians, you wouldnt have even did your last minute homework on the subject that I presented and its clear that you still are lacking sufficient knowledge on subjects that you are not in a position to talk about. Research a subject thoroughly before discussing it. Ask any anthropologist as to whether or not Iranians are Indo European or not and then come up with these off the wall assertions.
Camile does have a rather unpleasant looking face, in my opinion, small eyes, an aweful looking nose, compared to the finely chizeled nose of alessandra, and those cheap looking thin eyebrows.
I recently had a nose job, and actually wished my nose could have been as finely chizeled as Alessandra's, but I guess there is a limit to what a plastic surgeon can accomplish. At any rate, I had once commented on how Iranians are big fans of cosmetic surgery, namely nose jobs because that is the one area on which they try to acquire a more Europeanized look, the noses tend to be rather acquialine, which is a shame on the part of Iranians who can't accept their particular nasal configurations, but its a reality nonetheless. However, tall women, even as tall as 6 feet are considered attractive and so are long necks because they are a less common feature in a country whose citizens are mostly short. Some of us Iranians think that we are the most beautiful women in the world because of the structure of our eyes and and wideset eyebrows, which many do agree, but again, I will say it is just an opinion, not necessarily a reflection of every person's taste.
Actually another common surgery among many women, not just Iranians who are also fans of it, is cheek augmentation through which they attempt to acquire higher, more prominent looking cheekbones, those resembling that of many famous female celebrities, models included.
The simple fact that Mr. Holland was not under the impression, as he so claimed, that Iranians are as much into cosmetic surgery as they are now, is a clear indication that he does not know what beauty is for different people. For example, it would be worthwhile to research what type of cosmetic operation is most common among today's generation of Japanese women in Japan in order to draw conclusions about their particular aesthetic preferences.
In the US, the most popular cosmetic surgeries are liposuction and breast enhancement given the high numbers of overweight people and the popularity of having large breasts.
These are all fascinating subjects for me and I would love to explore them in greater depth with individuals who are also interested in them.
ooops, looks like i posted 2wice, sorry for the inconvenience readers.
For the record, alessandra is a gorgeous classy looking woman and she is a work of art, not vulgarity like Mr. Holland's aweful alternative, Camile.
I have left comments on another thread and am always happy to come across people who like to discuss the subjects of beauty, fashion, and aesthetics and all that pertain to these.
Like several visitors of this site, I am equally disturbed by Mr. Holland's borderline racially offensive rhetoric, namely his use of the word "swarthy" in an attempt to describe ethnic groups with relatively darker shades of skin and his bold assertion that women with more European (and he just uses the broad term European as if it is homogeneous in some of what he says and contradicts what he says before when he says that Europeans have the most variety) features are more admired than women with fewer or no European features at all because of the increased femininity that comes with having more European ancestry. Based on this logic, one would have to conclude that men with European ancestry are more likely to be feminine than men with less European ancestry, which of course is an absurd conclusion, but this is the only conclusion that can be reached based on Mr. Holland's assertions.
He furthermore attempts to tell people about their own racial composition and the racial composition of their native countries when he is in fact no visitor to those countries and his comments make it evident that he has a poor method of categorizing people.
I really like to share my views regarding the modeling industry and enjoy corresponding with others who are interested in this subjected. Below I have copied and pasted my views.
http://www.femininebeauty.info/news.php/weblog/comments/welcome/P100/#c738
I am always pleased to meet different people on the net and to read their views regarding the issues of beauty, fashion, and aesthetics and was equally disturbed by this site as many visitors are and find it distasteful that an adult man would result to borderline racially offensive rhetoric to make his point by using such terms as "swarthy" to describe people with relatively darker shades of skin and to imply that women with more European features are more internationally admired than women with other ethnic features given also the fact that his knowledge is very limited regarding different ethnic groups and attempts to tell people more about what their own ethnic heritage is. Though Mr. Holland is entitled to his views and so are others who share them, they must have the courtesy to present their views as merely opinions, not as the formulaic and scientific standard of what beauty is.
My email is eval(unescape('%64%6f%63%75%6d%65%6e%74%2e%77%72%69%74%65%28%27%3c%61%20%68%72%65%66%3d%22%6d%61%69%6c%74%6f%3a%73%61%68%6e%65%5f%67%68%61%73%68%61%6e%67%40%79%61%68%6f%6f%2e%63%6f%6d%22%3e%73%61%68%6e%65%5f%67%68%61%73%68%61%6e%67%40%79%61%68%6f%6f%2e%63%6f%6d%3c%2f%61%3e%27%29%3b')) and would love to correspond with inteligent, level headed people in exploring the subject of beauty along with all of its applications, meanings, and values that it has for people.
I am copying and pasting something I had left in another thread for visitors about my views regarding the fashion industry and would like to share them with others:
http://www.femininebeauty.info/news.php/weblog/comments/welcome/P100/#c738
Erik, you ARE trying to say what's beautiful and not. And as I said, beauty is SUBJECTIVE. You keep saying what "most" people like. What about the people in other socieities? In some societies, the most feminine woman is the biggest. What do you have to say to that?
And what about the people in this society who like what you don't? Femininity is, again, SUBJECTIVE.
And you ARE calling women male transvestites if you call models male transvestites (Which is a term for people who get aroused by dressing up. A better word would be "crossdresser." You should know that if you're so smart). Don't try to jump over that one. What, people feel better because you didn't personally point them out? There are people who look like models naturally and I'm sure they'd be deeply hurt hearing someone call someone who looks like them "male transvestites." Not only is that a HEAVY exaggeration (Sorry, but if you ran one of your little "tests" 99.9% of people would recognize that these ladies are women. Oh, and as I said before, all male transsexual don't even look like men and you'd be hardpressed to figure out that they were born male.), but it's obviously hurtful. Unfortunately, you can't see that over your big, "My femininity is the right femininity" head. Oh, and White women being the most feminine is so biased. YOU determined what femininity is and since White women fit your idea of femininity, White women are more "feminine" than other races. Right...
As I said before, why don't we celebrate the beauty of ALL women? Everyone isn't going to be the feminine you like, but they are still beautiful, anyway. I believe that we should have naturally thin women, naturally curvy women, etc. We should show people all the diversity that nature has to offer and show young women that no matter what they're size is, they are beautiful. Your idea of feminine beauty would exclude women who don't fit in it.
Sorry, but even if most guys had a "decent look at her (Alessandra)," they would still find her attractive. Please stop trying to justify that just because YOU are not attracted to something, everyone else isn't or shouldn't be (The greatest insult is to tell a man that something is wrong with him if he's attracted to something you are not). Some guys like women with long necks and broad shoulders. And most people don't notice the "broad ribs" you speak of. Yes, they're don't have any curves, but they are obviously women, not adolescenet boys.
erik-- it is sometimes difficult depending o the pose and lighting of that pic to make a airbrushing look natural. but the airbrushing is extremely obvious. also you have not explained why the pic i showed--which is recent, shows her with a small chest----cuz its not airbrushed!! the girls displayed in fhm and maxim are all airbrushed. it looks fake to me, but men are fooled, so sloppy execution goes by unchided. also the distinct purpose of padded bras is to make the chest seem larger---within clothing. so the push-up effect of the bra cup being stuffed with cloth/gel/liquid is to be expected. and yes, unfortunately victoria secret uses all these materials to enhance chests along with interesting seaming on the bra. maybe you should take a girl friend to their store and witness for your self the transformation.
Erik,
I completely understand your arguments and the eprspective you are looking at things from. Im not sure if it is because of my own personal dislike for square shaped faces or if is is because objectively there is something about square shaped faces which just strike me as really manlyish and not femineine at all when i look at them. Even in Nicky case's example her overall face/body "looks" feminine to me when i look at her, her face more due to her addditional feminine looking features i.e nose, lips etc...but i still cannot naturally deviate my attention away from her squarish structred jaw when i look at her which just doesnt appeal to me and lessens her overall attractiveness and her femininity for me even though overall she looks feminine. I think sometimes its not as black and white as it may appear to be. I think sometimes one single masucline feature on a body if it is a strong feature like the facial structure it can reduce the look of femininity subjectively even if objectively the person looks feminine "overall".
Mar: As I have replied to you elsewhere, women are not being called male transvestites and transsexuals here; some models and beauty pageant contestants have the looks of male transvestites and male-to-female transsexuals, and pointing this out is simply an accurate description of their looks, which I would normally avoid, but it is necessary within this site. Look carefully at the pictures of Rachel Hunter above and tell me whether she looks like a normal woman. Naomi Campbell looks masculinized; I don't see why anyone would dispute this.
Kristin: As I recall, Mariah Carey did not have a thick middle as a non-overweight young adult. I am not aware of her having gotten breast implants. Even if she did, my recollection of her pictures as a young adult suggest a woman in the normal-to-feminine range.
Mar: Fake femininity is an illusion of femininity achieved via breast implants or posing tricks. A woman does not have to be indistinguishable from a man in order to be called masculinized or manly. Heidi Klum's pictures leave no doubt as to how feminine she is.
Sarah: I have not called Alessandra ugly, but she is evidently masculine and has made a name for herself because she appeals to the gays who dominate the fashion business. Lifetime-exclusive heterosexual men may find her decent looking if they haven’t seen enough of her, but get them to go through this site and see how many find Alessandra attractive. This entry is not about criticizing her flaws, but about pointing out her masculinization. Regarding her breasts, once again go through three pictures of her -- Pic1, Pic2, Pic3 -- and answer the following. Padded bras do make the bust larger, but they do not increase actual breast size. How do you explain her large [actual] breasts in Pic 1? Photoshop or implants or both. Kristin has not answered the question I posed regarding Pic 2, namely that if it represents photoshop work, then why didn’t the artist make her breasts look more natural?
This site is not attacking models but critiquing the people/circumstances responsible for selecting skinny and masculine models. I am not going to call any woman unattractive and masculine because she has a B-cup; women with small breasts can look feminine and attractive (see Table 1 here). This site is not about how women should try to look like. None of the generalizations that you accuse the site of making are being made here. The nude models shown within this site are taken from a variety of sources, many non-pornographic. Most of the nude models in the attractive women section are not porn stars. The nude models selected for various illustrative purposes are selected for their looks, not because there is anything special about them; most nude models will not be shown here because they don’t have the looks that illustrate the arguments being made.
Mar: Physical femininity has been studied and is objectively assessed; go through the feminine vs. masculine page. If curves made a woman feminine, obese women would be the most feminine, but they are more masculine, on average, than normal women. Just as some men being shorter than most women does not undermine the argument that men, on average, are taller than women, the existence of masculinized white women does not undermine evidence that women with the most overall feminine appearance tend to be disproportionately white.
I am not teaching anyone what is beautiful, but pointing out what most people’s idea of beauty is. Women are not being called male transvestites and transsexuals here. Some models and beauty pageant contestants have the looks of male transvestites and male-to-female transsexuals, and pointing this out is simply an accurate description of their looks, which I would normally avoid, but it is necessary within this site. Beauty is diverse and in the form of skinny girls, curvy girls and big girls? Whereas almost all people will be found attractive by at least some, some people are considered attractive by most, and the skinny and obese are not among those that most find attractive. The majority has the right to appreciate what it finds beautiful, and it is high time there were some mainstream outlet for what the majority finds most appealing in the looks of women, namely feminine beauty.
You said:
"You are mistaken that the use of women with healthy physiques rather than an hourglass look is sufficient to combat the negative influence of skinny fashion models. Without convincing women at risk for developing anorexia that a competing healthy aesthetic standard is of merit and desired by most people, there will be no significant impact. Feminine beauty is naturally appreciated by most people, and women who are great examples of it are needed to combat the negative effects of skinny fashion models. "
You seem to fail to notice that women fall under a variety of physiques, so by using YOUR standard of what an attractive body looks like, you are continuing the problem. The minute a stenciled standard is set and women are apparently supposed to try to aim for it is the minute problems arise. You constantly try to claim otherwise but continue to contradict yourself.
You know what, you are a man. Simple as that. You don't have a woman's body and you are by no means someone to think that you can determine the standard for women and beauty. This site is just a prime example of men trying to exert patriarchy over women's bodies, in a place they have no business to control. I think I've said enough here and I can't wait to use this site as part of an anti-healthy body image discussion for my abnormal psych class.
Hey Amelia,
Although I admire the looks of Gisele Bundchen, I will go back to my orignal assertion that diversity is much needed by the modeling world. I will explain my personal definition of diversity as I speak of it here.
By diversification, I mean that not only should different racial and ethnic groups be represented in more equal numbers given the fact that the western world in general, European countries, the United States, Canada, some Latin American countries, and Australia are becoming more of a melting pot with a larger and more diverse selection of fans of fashion, clothing, and cosmetics, but also that different body types, which entails different bone structures, heights, proportions, facial configurations be represented. I think in past times and even so today, the modeling world did, in fact, cater to a more specific group of people and the reason many were underrepresented was because of their lack of presence in the realm of show business, fashion, and other forms of media or simply because of their lack of willingness to speak or to express their concern about being underrepresented. At the turn of this century, with the presence of Jennifer Lopez in the music world and some other pear shaped stars, luckily many women can take pride in being pear shaped whereas there was a previously a big stigma attached to it.
In my opinion, the most aesthetically pleasing standard for any woman is what would make any particular woman appear most aesthetically pleasing in her own right, while maintaining her health, both physically and mentally. There is nothing wrong with a woman being unusually thin either in the fashion world as long as the woman is proven to beh healthy and is proven to have a look that is achievable for her particular body type, which can be proven by submitting to a regular physical, which should be used as a standard and if so many supermodels stopped denying to the public that they are, in fact, starving themselves to look the way they do. Also, if a woman simply has a tendency towards having less body fat than some other women she can be used as model for women who are on the thin side.
The problem with the modeling world, I believe, is that women are forced to aspire towards something that is not achievable by all of them and this induces feelings of inadequacy inside of them, which is unhealthy, and can retard personal growth and an appreciation of one's own unique traits and abilities. Actually, I explained this phenomenon to a male friend of mine who is trying to understand women, that in order to have a successful relationship with a woman, every man needs to realize that it is every woman's right to feel beautiful. The modeling world, at this time, is much more limited in its selection of aesthetically pleasing looks. What we need to move towards is a situation in which every woman has a model that she can not only aspire to, but identify with, and who can model clothes, hair styles, and cosmetics for her that flatter her own particular look and not necessarily the look of another.
Also, modelling and fashion need to be treated as works of art, in my opinion. The most credible artist is one who can work with a variety of mediums to produce a eye catching work. There is no reason why male homosexuals would not be able to do this if the status quo shifted a bit.
I forgot to mention that we need models with various skin tones, eye colors, and hair colors in a variety of combinations in order to explore the art of make up and hair color and how it plays into accentuating one's beauty. Women with predominantly European features are not necessarily more aesthetically pleasing on an international level than women with more East Asian, Southeast Asian, East Indian, Middle Eastern (semetic or Indo European), or North African or Sub Saharan African features.
I remember a Vietnamese man in my Communications class saying that he would not ever choose a blonde girl over an Asian because he had a personal affinity for the eye structure of Asian women. Clearly, this indicates that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some men in recent years admit to liking women who are more plumpish whereas when waif like physiques were our only point of reference in the 90s for beauty before the presense of Jennifer Lopez and some other stunningly voluptous celebrities and women, men always used Cindy Crawford as reference point for the emblem of beauty. Though stunningly beautiful and a brilliant artist, most level headed people can say that Cindy Crawford is just one of many versions of what beauty can be.
I always appreciate people's inputs with respect to my ideas. Please feel free to share, but please be respectful.
I just finished observing some photographs of supermodel Gisele Bundchen and must say that on a personal level, I think that she is stunning, though not perfect. Only her nose and chin may need surgical alteration in order to achieve a closer degree of femininity and perfection. Her tall, slender physique, though too slim and emaciated for healthy norms is overall very aesthetically pleasing as well as her facial bone structure. Great skin, hair, and ability to manueaver oneself in a variety of attires...she has these. Of course, she hits it off with superstar Leonardo DiCaprio, then there is something obviously right about her. The titanic hottie that all the girls wanted found himself i the arms of 5'11 supermodel. For her height, her waist to hip ratio of approximately, 0.71 is very good as well as her long sleek legs and not to mention that she actually appears to have naturally voluptuous breast and even they have been surgically altered, I will say that the surgeon should be sought after by all women who are seeking breast enhancement and want to look natural at the same time.
I just went over the site, every page:
"I am getting tired of having to point out materials within this site that you should have read prior to commenting. What do I know of norms among European women? Read this page for just one example, which describes the outline of the average North American white female and also some other ethnicities; it also presents some data on Iranians. It should be obvious that your face is more masculine looking than the average North American white female’s."
Mr. Holland there is nothing on Iranians or the vast majority of ethnic groups here, you simply have the audacity to place a black woman's picture next to a white woman's picture and make comparisons as to which is more feminine than which and have the audacity also to say that Halle Berry got a nose job to appeal to the tastes of African Americans. Again, you do not represent the opinions of African Americans either because you interview none of them. Furthermore, there is only one random photo shot of Aishwarya Rai and of one other East Indian actress wearing colored lenses where you compare here to a very grotesque looking woman and compare their levels of femininity.
Furthermore, with respect to your rudeness and presumptuousness that I be wary of white, European men who take an interest in me given the higher probability that they have AIDS and other venereal diseases, I would like to let you know that unlike the women you have an apparent liking for (if you can make a judgemnt like that about me then I am most definitely in position to make judgements about you who is nothing more than what others have described as a PE major), I am not the cheap promiscuous type that engages in sexual relations, let alone unprotected sexual relations, with anyone random person who has attraction towards me. Most men earn their way into my life and I am in the business of rejecting 95% of the men who show attraction.
The simple fact that oftentimes I attract the attention of almost every man in the room regardless of what the other females in the room look like is enough indication that I am above average in looks. Can every man in the room have a tendency towards bisexuality and have AIDS and veneral diseases, the probability is very very low. Plus, your comment is useless, it has no meaning and is purely baseless. Its just losers like you that no they do not stand a chance with desirable respectable women and so they make the comments that they do. Your kind is a sad, sorry story. I am not bragging about myself, but have to set you straight in the eyes of others who are offended by you. Even if Amelia or Kirsten or anyone were to see how I looked, they wouldnt think the way you do. I get enough compliments from people at work, in my life, those who come across me on a day to day basis to know that I am special and beautiful. It is clear you do not like women who are happy with themselves and the comments you make towards me are a clear indication. Now, I leave them here for everyone who reads these to see who you are.
Erik
Maria mcbanes figure looks normal to me, nothing dramitic about it. Perhaps its because a too narrow waist has the opposite effect it is supposed to have i.e reduce femininity? I mean her waist may look slim and the phsyique and curves may be more noticble but if the waist looks too slim the look would be too fragile, wouldnt a thicker waist measument give a more dramatic look than a too slim waist?
Amelia,
a sorry idiot is a sorry idiot, just ban him. The rest of society has spit on his face and left him with all of these complexes.
These comments that we are posting here, Mr. Holland, no longer even address you, they just expose how narrow minded, lame, and demeaning your comments are when you respond to them. Yet, I still ask, where are your supporters???? You have none. You are a lone wolf, Mr. Holland, that has lost the entire pack. While everyone else out there is enjoying life, and moving forward, you are in your sedentary backward place, boiling with anger because you are a societal reject. Enjoy your life.
You should have enough sense to realize that the word swarthy is not an appropriate term to describe relatively darker shades of skin. I would like you to use that word face to face when speaking to someone in describing them and see the reaction you get. It is clearly not appropriate. By the way, not all semitics are swarthy and neither am I. In fact, anyone who has taken a good look at Arabs and Jews, can tell that my features are not in the least semitic, they are a blend of Slavic and East Indian in appearance. In fact, semetic peoples themselves describe me as such. You have no way of categorizing people. The rest of the world has admired Sophia Loren, Monica Bellucci and some other models whose looks you do not favor, and they do not need your favor either. Obviously, they had something to offer, in terms of looks, class, and reason that you do not and are still used as examples of female beauty.
The fact remains, you have no supporters and have interviewed and spoken to no one about anything to prove your point.
Where are your supporters now to defend you?????
Amelia: You wrote:
Quote:
Talk about remarkable distortion! I am not trying to promote diverse figures, but specifically those that are examples of feminine beauty. There is no argument here along the lines of what a “true” female body should look like; “true” female bodies naturally come in wide varieties. The illustrative examples are supposed to help convey what feminine beauty is supposed to look like. Promotion of feminine beauty does not require debasement of other looks, which this site is not doing; a contrast with other looks suffices to show what is feminine. I have not argued that women should strive to achieve feminine beauty.
Regarding the discussion of self-esteem issues, a website with more than a few pages will not be able to highlight links to all of its pages just about everywhere. It is the responsibility of the reader to go through the site and understand it before critiquing it.
The reason that there is information on facial structure here is because it is needed to show how masculinization and feminization change face shape; without this information, my arguments will be dismissed as subjective. Nobody should infer that this information is provided because I want women to do anything about their facial features.
As far as promoting awareness of variety among women goes, I am not contradicting myself. I want to see more feminine looking women among models and beauty pageant contestants as part of feminine beauty promotion rather than in order to promote awareness of diversity. In this age of global television and the internet, not to mention multiethnic big cities, many people have seen tremendous ethnic diversity in looks; if there is any need to promote awareness of diversity in looks, this site will not concern itself with it.
I am not dispelling beauty myths by promoting the myth that ‘“real femininity” is about being an hourglass figure.’ The argument here is about feminine beauty, not femininity per se. There are feminine women around who are not examples of feminine beauty. An hourglass figure should be considered as a reference standard for feminine beauty; it is not an absolute requirement.
You are mistaken that the use of women with healthy physiques rather than an hourglass look is sufficient to combat the negative influence of skinny fashion models. Without convincing women at risk for developing anorexia that a competing healthy aesthetic standard is of merit and desired by most people, there will be no significant impact. Feminine beauty is naturally appreciated by most people, and women who are great examples of it are needed to combat the negative effects of skinny fashion models. Regarding high standards of feminine beauty, you can rest assured that promoting it will not be corresponding to unhealthy behaviors, as I have already explained under the heading Cosmetic surgery in relation to the promotion of feminine beauty within the page that addresses body-esteem issues. Masculinized women will end up with a distorted or cartoonish figure if they use a corset.
You have again asked “How on earth are women supposed to strive for a figure that they weren’t born with?” Once again, this site is not about what women are supposed to strive for. As far as women being allowed to determine what is feminine and beautiful goes, femininity of physical appearance is not a matter of opinion, as a tremendous amount of data cited within this site shows, and most people share their sense of what constitutes beauty; there is an intrinsic element to aesthetic appreciation that cannot be changed, though there is room for manipulating what some people find beautiful by associating some looks with high status and thereby desirability. As far as women having better self-esteem goes if there were not men around specifying what constitutes feminine beauty, my arguments would not bother you if you did not recognize that the nature of feminine beauty portrayed here represents reality. If I were promoting obese women here, I don’t think that you would be disturbed by this site because the typical person in Western society does not aesthetically appreciate obesity. You are more than welcome to find like-minded individuals (think Aileen) and try to set up a site to define what you feel is feminine and beautiful; I will let my readers know of it when it is done.
Some of the minutiae of aesthetics discussed here are applicable to European women but not other ethnicities. For instance, East Indian women have naturally higher waist-to-hip ratios than European women, on average, and are thereby not required to present the appearance of the hourglass extremes shown within this site to constitute examples of attractive women among their co-ethnics. So why are you bothered? Do not compare yourself to European women.
I need to redefine an hourglass figure? An hourglass approximation is a rough one and in front view only. The pictures/looks speak for themselves; there is no need to attempt mathematical precision.
As far as my neglecting the “real” issue, i.e., comparing healthy physiques to unhealthy ones, or the necessity of focusing on unhealthy body depictions goes, why do I have to keep repeating that the purpose of this site is to promote feminine beauty? Feminine beauty corresponds to health although health does not necessarily correspond to feminine beauty. The primary purpose of this site is not to promote health.
You wrote:
Quote:
Manly fashion models are not being slammed here; the people/circumstances that have put them in a position of high status are being critiqued. The negative health consequences of fashion imagery featuring skinny women have been extensively addressed on the eating disorders page. The looks of average women have also been addressed, often in the form of numerical data; go through the entire section that addresses aesthetics in international beauty pageants.
When you say that many women would like high cheekbones because it adds structure to the face, you are confusing the height of the cheekbones with their horizontal prominence (which figures into the structure issue). The argument here is not that high cheekbones equals masculine per se. The argument is that masculinization causes a higher placement of the cheekbones on the face.
As to my failure “to address some rather obvious things regarding facial features and bone structure,” here is my reply to your three points:
Quote:
It is surprising that you “sometimes wonder why thin is in” when the clear answer is provided here. Contrary to your impression about not-so-skinny fashion models in the 1980s and 1990s as opposed to skinny ones in the 1960s and 1970s, there has been a trend toward increasing skinniness among fashion models from the 1960s onward. You appear to have been mislead by the supermodel phenomenon that characterized part of the 1980s and 1990s. Whereas the supermodels, i.e., the most famous ones, were not super skinny, the norm among high-fashion models was skinny. Please go through and understand this site before critiquing it.
Aileen: I have a bunch of things to do other than working on this site. This is the reason why this site is updated slowly and why it may take me a while to respond. I don’t need days to think over a response. Don’t delude yourself into believing that you are outdebating me. All I see from critics like you is ad hominem, misrepresentations and misunderstanding.
I have IP logs to prove that Aileen, Raymond and Maria are the same person whereas Sandy and I are not. Sandy has also left a bunch of comments around, even before her latest comment within this thread, and reading them should make it obvious that she and I are not the same person. I do not need to be posting comments here using multiple aliases to show that people agree with me; the scientific information and pictures cited are enough to prove my arguments, and your comments, especially as Raymond and Maria, show just what people who disagree with this site have to offer as counter arguments.
Using the expression “Your comment is the kind I get from pathetic homosexuals...” is not to imply that the person is one, but to simply state what kind of men are expected to leave the comment that “Raymond” did. Raymond could be a woman and hence I did not say “A pathetic homosexual like you...” I did not check the IP logs before posting it or else would have realized that it was you.
As far as the self-esteem stuff goes, I discussed it over a month ago, and have never presented arguments along the lines of not caring about women’s self-esteem at all. None of this should be news to those that have bothered to thoroughly go through the site before judging it. I have now started working around people’s arguments? I have not presented myself as a person with no liking for what feminists stand for. Just because I criticize a feminist, i.e., Heather above, it does mean that I have something against feminist demands per se. Neither have I presented myself as someone against the practice of psychology as a science. Psychology is a mixed bag; some of it is science but the rest isn’t. Psychoanalysis, which I critiqued, is not science, and as long as this discipline remains part of psychology, psychology simply cannot be regarded as a science. I don’t believe that I am being careless about my choice of words, but changing the wording used is not going to help improve the respect people have for this site because my arguments are based on data and pictures, not wording. I know you have no respect for this site and so do a number of other people out there, and this cannot be changed by carefully chosen words because people who have no interest in feminine beauty will at best remain indifferent to this site and some others will remain hostile toward the promotion of feminine beauty.
I don’t believe that I have used any belittling terms for...
Quote:
Do I need to interview a bunch of white and Iranian men to figure out who would prefer you more? Anyone familiar with the looks of your co-ethnics and white women would know the answer right away after looking at you. My friendly advice to you, again, is to beware of the white men interested in you given your more manly appearance compared to white female norms. Better be safe than sorry; no point in catching venereal diseases or HIV from men on the down-low when plenty of your co-ethnics would be pleased to date you.
I cannot understand why you and Amelia have problems being called swarthy. There is nothing wrong with being swarthy. Poor you got offended by it even though the word is an accurate description of you! On the other hand, you had no qualms coming up with ad hominem to supposedly “out-debate” me and keep coming up with annoying comments such as hypothesizing that I have “an issue against most of the women in today’s world” when I have made it clear that this site is about the looks of models and beauty pageant contestants, not women in general.
As far as the ethnic composition of Iranians goes, I have never implied anything along the lines of Iranians being a mono-ethnic group. Iran has been occupied by diverse groups throughout history, including European tribes, and it shows in the variety of looks found there. However, it has a Semitic element, and people looking at you would think Semite right away. If you believe that Iranians are Indo-Europeans, then a reality check is in order. The Indo-Europeans were a European people than spread from the Russian Caucasus region to a broad region of Europe and as far southeast as India. If you want to see examples of how they looked, search for pictures of the Tarim Basin mummies and note their hair colors, among other features. Also see the hair of this Scythian warrior; the Scythians occupied a broad region ranging from Iran to Mongolia. The original Indo-European looks in Iran are gone and some people close to them driven out by Muslims. If Amelia knew how you looked she would be able to tell that you would not fit among a group of Persians that fled Moslem persecution in Iran and sought refuge in India. They are a light-skinned people with facial features ranging from European to close to European, unlike your dark and Semitic looks. Dark-haired Iranian women with fair skin and European facial features are admired the world over, but not your kind.
Your assertion that I do not appear to be a fan of women who manage to be successful and famous regardless of their looks is nonsense; this site is not about success/fame, but about the looks of models and beauty pageant contestants. So what if Sophia Loren was widely admired? Manly Gisele Bundchen has been described as the most beautiful woman in the world by some authorities, too. Am I to lend credence to what “authorities” have said or consider how these women look? So what if some women aspired to acquire the abnormal-looking cheekbones of Sophia Loren? Some women aspire to acquire the super-skinny looks of high-fashion models even though there is no aesthetic merit in skinniness as far as most people are concerned. Some people will try to acquire some features of famous women, but this does not mean that the desired features are of merit by themselves. Monica Belluci is not added to the attractive women section because she is insufficiently feminine rather than because she is famous.
I am getting tired of having to point out materials within this site that you should have read prior to commenting. What do I know of norms among European women? Read this page for just one example, which describes the outline of the average North American white female and also some other ethnicities; it also presents some data on Iranians. It should be obvious that your face is more masculine looking than the average North American white female's.
Some people have left appreciative comments here, and I have received a number of appreciative emails, too. People who appreciate this site will typically at best be able to come up with a one-liner expressing their appreciation, but most wouldn’t bother whereas the ones disturbed by it would be prompted to leave lengthy comments. This should be intuitive. Anyway, I don’t care if you believe that most people do not appreciate this site. I have some things to do and will do my job regardless of what others think. Who appreciates this site and who doesn’t will become obvious to most in due time.
You must make an effort to understand this site before leaving more comments or else you are not welcome to do so.
Aileen,
Yes you are definately right about the fashion industry providing a more diverse range of looks. I sometimes wonder why thin is in right now--- for the most part, fashion recycles itself-- in the 60's and 70's thin was in, then in the 80's and a good portion of the 90's the "Amazon" models were popular, like Linda Evangelista and Cindy Crawford. So one would expect this to start recycling itself...but it hasn't.
I think one of the problems contributing to this is the amount of attention people with very thing bodies are being given. Not that they should be ignored by any means; but taking a look at eating disorders and the psychology behind them, when you give an undue amount of attention (whatever it may be) to thinness especially anorexia, it actually reinforces the individual to want to become more thin, and thus validating their motivations for being thin, and believing that they actually look healthy.
So instead of slamming the thinness of fashion models, examples providing a greater range of beauty in various heights, body shapes, and musculatures would be helpful in gravitating away from Twiggy's look to a healthier Cindy Crawford-- regardless of the fact that her uppper body is toned.
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