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Nonheterosexual vs. heterosexual male preference for petite women: Alessandra Ambrosio vs. Camille

Some heterosexual men prefer petite women over voluptuous women; voluptuous as used here is not an euphemism for obesity, but refers to a combination of large breasts, a tiny waist, small rib cage, rounded hips and a prominent backside, i.e., a very feminine appearance.  Petite women would, on average, be less feminine than voluptuous women.  However, as long as a self-identified lifetime-exclusive heterosexual man prefers the more feminine petite women, one would not reasonably doubt his professed sexual orientation.  A comparison of fashion model Alessandra Ambrosio, very sexy by the standards of the fashion world, with Camille from Teen Stars magazine will be instructive here.

Alessandra Ambrosio has a very masculine face; her face is that of an adolescent male transvestite rather than a woman’s.

Alessandra Ambrosio and Camille from teen stars magazine

Alessandra Ambrosio and Camille from teen stars magazine

The breasts of Alessandra cannot be properly addressed since she has breast implants, as apparent below, but it is obvious that she is naturally flat chested.

Alessandra Ambrosio

On the other hand, Alessandra’s boyish physique can easily be contrasted with a more feminine physique.

Alessandra Ambrosio and Camille from teen stars magazine

Alessandra Ambrosio and Camille from teen stars magazine

Alessandra Ambrosio and Camille from teen stars magazine

Faced between choosing a voluptuous woman that will probably become obese after marriage (only true of some), as most likely this woman will, and a petite though feminine woman that will probably never become obese, it is understandable that some heterosexual men will prefer a petite woman for a long-term stable partner, but if these men are lifetime-exclusive heterosexual with a choice of women, the selected women wouldn’t be anywhere close to Alessandra Ambrosio in looks.

Some people explain the typical skinniness of fashion models in terms of the need for them to function as clothes hangars, an obviously lame reason.  Well, Camille is petite enough to not have curves come in the way, but she is too feminine to look like an adolescent boy and therefore unacceptable to the homosexuals who dominate the fashion business.  The likes of Camille are also too feminine for the annual transsexual parade better known as the Victoria’s Secret lingerie show.

Some more pictures of Camille are shown below.

Camille from teen stars magazine

Camille from teen stars magazine

Camille from teen stars magazine




after the victoria's secret fashion show this year, all anyone could talk about was how hot the women were. i find it hilarious that you think these models look like trannies when every other man in the world is off masturbating to photos of them. are you sure YOU'RE not the one that's a homo?

and by the way, you really shouldn't have your site be misunderstood as an "info" site. this isn't information, it's YOUR opinion. it is not information that these women look masculine to you; alessandra looks perfectly gorgeous to me, and that girl you compared to her is NOWHERE as beautiful as alessandra is.

the reason why alessandra is a top model is because she has very defining features, while that girl you compared her to has a very sloppy looking face. not to mention she has very thin, ugly eyebrows and yellow teeth, making her look like a two dollar skank.

you like skanky girls, that's fine, but that doesn't mean that the rest of heterosexual males do too, like you are trying to imply.

girls like alessandra are classy, and that's what makes her such a famous model, whereas you can find whorish looking "woman" like that thing next to her walking around in the streets everyday.

and one more thing (sorry for the triple posts)

that huge close-up of that camille girl's face looks more like a little boy than any of the pictures of alessandra on here (and you DID choose not so great pictures of her). if she had short hair, thicker eyebrows and no lipgloss slathered on, she could pass for a 7 year old boy.

of course, it's MY opinion that she looks boyish but you don't see me making sites calling this shit "information", do you? or is this site merely just to make average, sloppy looking women feel better about themselves by trying to call them more feminine looking when that's really not the case?

it's also interesting how all these women you come up with that you think are feminine are amateur glamour models, because they are not good enough to become famous like victoria's secret models and such. this makes me question if you really aren't just some fat (excuse me, voluptuous *rolls eyes*) woman who's just jealous of these top models?

hmm: The talk about “gorgeous models” in the Victoria’s Secret lingerie show was in fashion circles. Alessandra Ambrosio was one of the models in this show, and what is remarkable is that anyone could be so clueless as to believe that lifetime-exclusive heterosexual men have any inclination toward fantasizing about the likes of Alessandra. I can understand some clueless men, unaware of the fake femininity of these women (e.g., breast implants), seeing these models in low resolution images on TV and thinking that they are hot, but a closer examination as above and also of some of the other ones -- such as Gisele Bundchen, Heidi Klum and Anna Beatriz Barros -- elsewhere within this site show just how feminine these women are.

The reason that the feminine glamour models are not good enough for being Victoria’s Secret models or fashion models in general is that the fashion business is dominated by homosexual men. Additionally, plenty of data from peer-reviewed journals has been cited within this site to refute the accusation that this site is merely someone’s opinion.

I have already pointed out that petite women like Camille would generally not be among the most feminine women, but see the feminine vs. masculine page to understand who between Alessandra and Camille is more feminine. Also read about the importance of femininity to beauty in women to understand what kind of looks the general public and heterosexual men prefer in women.

how many times do you have to use that ridiculous "logic" that only homosexuals think these women are gorgeous? hate to break it to you, but almost all completely straight men would die to be with girls like her. you're in the minority, only because most likely, you're just some sad, pathetic, average to ugly male whose been rejected by beautiful girls all his life and he thinks making a site like this will redeem is dignity. while real, masculine, straight men are out right now playing sports and things like that, you're sitting on your ass making a site to give women beauty tips? who's the fag, now?

why don't you go visit websites like "" and see what REAL men have to say about these women. although i don't completely agree with all the women on their top 99, you can't argue with the top 5.

now, let's hear you try to spill out bullshit about how girls like JESSICA ALBA or ADRIANA LIMA look masculine. most women in the world would die to look like them, and almost all straight men would die to be with them.

hmm: I have not implied that only homosexual men appreciate the looks of women like Alessandra Ambrosio. Note the term “lifetime-exclusive heterosexual men”; few such men would be interested in Alessandra, and a close examination of these men will almost certainly reveal that they narrowly escaped nonheterosexuality. Men who are not lifetime-exclusive heterosexuals, only few of whom are gay, are the ones disproportionately into the likes of Alessandra.

What makes you think that I am spending all my time behind this site? If I had such free time, this site would have had a considerable amount of content so far, but 10 months after its inception, it doesn't even approach a hundred pages.

This site is not about giving beauty tips to women; the latter is just some information so as to not disappoint women interested in beauty who come across this site.

Lists such as those at are based on celebrities and not exclusively based on looks; personality factors and talent, which have a halo effect on looks, also play a role. Men pick the best looking among celebrities; some of these men are nonheterosexual, and a number are clueless. Lifetime-exclusive heterosexual men with not much of a clue about aesthetics will not see the likes of Jessica Alba or Adriana Lima as particularly attractive after going through this site. Just wait and watch what happens as heterosexual men get better educated.

better educated?

do you seriously think that if you "educate" them about what you call feminine beauty, they will suddenly change their mind?

beauty is in the eye of the beholder. no one can change what one person finds beautiful in another. for example, even though gisele is the highest paid supermodel to date and has been praised as being one of the hottest women out there, that doesn't change my mind that she looks like a man. i don't care if i'm the only person in the world that does not find her attractive. so just because you say jessica alba and adriana lima aren't attractive, doesn't mean everyone's going to think so after they hear what you have to say.

YOU'RE the one that's in the minority for thinking jessica alba and adriana lima are not attractive. and that's apparently due to the fact that you have absolutely horrible taste in women. want second opinions? ask every other straight male out there that has a penis.

i'm pretty sure 99.9% of "lifetime-exclusive heterosexual males" would choose alessandra over that average looking broad, camille.

oh and tell me, what exactly is so masculine about jessica and adriana? they exude femininity. beautiful eyes (especially adriana), cute noses and pouty lips.

maybe it's due to the fact that you refuse to recognize that these women who happen to not be european are the most beautiful celebrities in the modern world? face it, it's the truth.

hahah when I saw that picture of Alessandra compared to that picture of that other chick I seriously thought that the other chick was supposed to be Alessandra when she was six. Wow, and you find that attractive?

Why do you think every woman out there has breast implants? You don't need to be "vuluptuous" to have breasts and if you have an hour-glass figure that doesn't mean you will have breasts! I have a very small chest and my measurements are 33-25-32.

Oh and I agree with that other girl/guy; Adriana Lima is definitely attractive. If you don't think this is attractive:


you are insane.

Oh, and one more thing. You know absolutely NOTHING about fashion. The clothes hanger excuse, is not an excuse, and it is NOT lame. Bodies like that are needed. If a woman is vuluptuous she can NOT look good in any kind of clothing, whereas these thin women can. Fashion Designers also can not be bothered to tailor all of their clothes just so some vuluptuous five foot four girl can fit in to them. They need tall, elegant, thin girls. They need to show off their clothes and they can not show off their clothes on a short stubby girl with a big ass.

Oh, and just so you know: practically every guy I know thinks the perfect size breasts are B cups and small C cups. big boobs are gross. they bounce around and sag.

hmm: Better educated heterosexual men implies men better educated about fake femininity, an illusion achieved by breast implants, posing tricks and make-up. Improved education is not going to alter innate preferences.

Whereas people vary with respect to individual tastes, there is broad agreement in the population as to what constitutes physical attractiveness, and with respect to attractiveness in women, the broad agreement is that women with above average femininity are preferable.

If you believe that 99.9% of lifetime-exclusive heterosexual men would prefer Alessandra Ambrosio to Camille, then you have no idea what male heterosexuality is about and surely are not a lifetime-exclusive heterosexual man.

I did not say that Jessica Alba and Adriana Lima are unattractive or masculine; I said that they are not particularly attractive, i.e., there is nothing about their looks that would warrant their placement in a list of top-sexy or top-attractive women if the masses were better educated about aesthetics, feminine beauty in particular.

Since the major problem that this site is addressing is of Western origin, this site is primarily targeting a Western audience, and hence its focus on white females. Nevertheless, I will address non-white women if I have to, and I will briefly address the looks of Jessica Alba and Adriana Lima.

Both Jessica Alba and Adriana Lima have breast implants, Jessica’s being less obvious. Jessica Alba has a masculinized face, which is something that I am pointing out now. If you cannot see the masculinization in her face in spite of going through the feminine vs. masculine page and looking at the side by side comparisons involving fashion and glamour models, then you should give up trying to understand what constitutes feminine beauty.

Jessica Alba

Jessica also has shoulders on the broad side.

Jessica Alba

Neither the physique nor the face of Jessica Alba is as masculine as the corresponding feature of Alessandra, but Jessica is nowhere close to being an example of feminine beauty.

Masculinization is also seen in Adriana Lima’s face.

Adriana Lima

With a broad rib cage and naturally small breasts, Adriana’s physique does not approach a feminine, hourglass figure.

Adriana Lima

Jessica Alba and Adriana Lima are not as masculine as Alessandra Ambrosio, and they look better than many women, but they are not examples of feminine beauty. These Latinas come from populations where the Native American stock has higher waist-to-hip ratios than Europeans and women with less feminine looking faces. Therefore, it is understandable that many Latinos find these women very attractive, but their looks do not impress in a European context.

Belle: 6-year-old Alessandra Ambrosio would have been a masculine-looking girl just as she is a masculine woman today. I did not say that I find Camille very attractive. Read the title and first paragraph of this entry to understand why I have used Camille. I would not put Camille within the attractive women section of this site; I have used her to address the limits of male heterosexual preference for petite women.

Where have I stated that every woman out there has breast implants? Some women obviously have breast implants. I have already mentioned elsewhere, along with photographic evidence, that large breasts neither guarantee an hourglass figure nor are required for one. Your dimensions do not suggest an hourglass figure.

Adriana Lima is not bad looking, but she is not an example of feminine beauty.

I am not a huge breasts fan myself. However, from the perspective of most people, the typical very attractive woman will have a C-cup and not less than a B-cup.

If you had read the skinny fashion models page, you would not have brought up the clothes hangar issue. High-fashion models are not just skinny; they are also masculine, and fashion designers prefer teenage girls to women in their twenties. If skinniness and tallness were required, then there are plenty of tall and skinny women with feminine faces and feminine skeletal proportions to chose from. Additionally, women in their twenties do not look too old. If curves come in the way, then one could use slender women, but why use horribly skinny women? It is obvious that women who best approximate the looks of adolescent boys are the skinny, masculine and young ones, and it does not take much of an imagination to figure out why looks approaching those of adolescent boys characterize the central tendency of high-fashion models given that the fashion business is dominated by homosexual men. Besides, high-fashion models are used in several ways that detract from their alleged role as clothes hangars: excessive hip swaying, occasional bizarre make-up, the use of very famous women, deliberate exposure of breasts/nipples on occasion, deliberate pairing of pale white women with very dark sub-Saharan Africans, and so on.

first of all, buddy. of course i'm not a lifetime-exclusive heterosexual man, because I AM A FEMALE. i would've thought you had figured that out already.

you still haven't addressed the fact that you are in the miniority of heterosexual men (if you really are one). i always hear guys raving about how hot girls like jessica alba and adriana lima are, in real life and also on the internet. i serously think you are the first guy who claims to be fully heterosexual that doesn't find adriana lima attractive. and don't give that bullshit that latina women happen to be more masculine looking than european women. i myself am european, and i still think that miss lima happens to be sexier than any other white women i've ever seen in my life. maybe it's due to the fact that you happen to have some racial superiority complex, and so you come up with a totally illogical idea that women of any other race other than european are less feminine looking. what about asian women? are you going to try to argue they're more masculine looking, as well? most asian women i know of have very soft, feminine features, according to what you describe as "feminine".

i also think it's funny and a bit on the pathetic side that you are choosing pictures of amateur pornstars to deem attractive. these "models" also look like they're still teenagers. do you like teenagers? are you a pedophile? or really, just a sad sad man with poor taste?

how about you find a heterosexual man, just any random one, and ask them if they prefer adriana lima, or some picture of an amateur pornstar, or excuse me, "glamour model"? then you can post it here for proof.

hmm: I have already explained that most of the attractive women shown within this site have been sourced from adult sites because there are no alternatives at present. Most of the women in the attractive women section appear to be in their twenties, some are 18 or 19 and two are in their thirties. Besides, pedophilia refers to a preference for pre-pubescent children, not teenagers.

As far as finding Jessica Alba and Adriana Lima particularly attractive goes, I am far from being in the minority of heterosexual men who are well-informed about the nature of feminine beauty. These women don’t look bad, but the heterosexual men who highly appreciate these women are the ones who do not know any better and cannot see through fake femininity. This site is working toward educating these men.

Regarding the feminine appearance of women across populations, you should go through this page to learn that European women have, on average, more feminine waist-hip proportions. The referenced page is part of a section that addresses aesthetics in international beauty pageants, and if you go through it, you will encounter plenty of documentation regarding the more feminine appearance of European women, on average. It would be an easy matter to find some women in any given population that look more feminine than some women in other populations, but central tendency differences do matter. Jessica Alba and Adriana Lima will be better appreciated by people whose women look less feminine compared to those whose women look more feminine.

An illustrative example should help in this regard. Below, I will address a Central European equivalent of Jessica Alba, Andrea from Like Jessica, Andrea is not a very feminine woman; Andrea is tall, has large hands and feet and small breasts. However, Andrea’s face is much more feminine looking than Jessica’s.

Andrea from

Andrea from

One consequence of more feminine waist-hip proportions among European women is that even the not-so-feminine European women have a more feminine-looking waist-hip region than somewhat more feminine non-European women.

Andrea from

Therefore, how can heterosexual men living in the midst of whites and well-familiar with white females have a high opinion of the looks of Jessica Alba and Adriana Lima?

"Therefore, how can heterosexual men living in the midst of whites and well-familiar with white females have a high opinion of the looks of Jessica Alba and Adriana Lima?"

because they're exotic looking, that's why. since i live in america i see like a million white women each day, and they all pretty much look the same. but when you look at women like adriana or jessica, they look different, and in a good way.

oh and by the way, jessica alba is half dutch, making her half european, and adriana lima is french, portugese, and carribean, which does NOT make her latina.

i still can't see what's so much more feminine about this average looking white woman than jessica alba. and even if there are more feminine features about her, jessica alba is 10000x more gorgeous than this girl, even if she is more "masculine" (according to you, and you only).

Exotic looks are not necessarily attractive. A bald woman with lots of body hair would look exotic but few would consider her to be attractive.

How can you live in the U.S., be someone of European ancestry and come to the conclusion that white women pretty much all look the same? Hair and eye color diversity is the highest among Northern Europeans, the type of Europeans most white Americans are, and the U.S. also has plenty of whites from other geographic regions. Your comment is something that one expects from non-Europeans since it is not unusual for people to believe that members of another ethnic group look pretty much the same.

South American Latinas are typically part European and part Native American and/or African. So, I don’t see why Adriana Lima does not qualify as a Latina in the U.S.

If after going through this site you still do not understand why Jessica Alba looks less feminine than Andrea then you should just give up trying to understand the nature of feminine beauty.

good looking white women usually DO look all the same. other girls of different ethnicities can look the same as well, but girls like adriana lima and those like her are different looking because they are a mix of races. when you are of mixed race, you have a much different look than if you were just all white, black, asian, latina, or whatever.

jessica alba is still more attractive to me than this average, typical white chick. i don't care if you think she looks a bit masculine. when it comes down to it, it doesn't really matter, anyways. it's all about their overall appearance. who cares if she has a sharp chin, or whatever other tiny flaws you think she has? that's just nitpicking. if this girl andrea became an actress just like jessica alba, people would look at her and think "yea she's cute", but no one would pay her attention as much as they do to jessica because she looks like a lot like the other white girls in hollywood.

hmm: The range of the attractive is a lot narrower than the range of physical variation in the population, but if you go through the attractive women section of this site, I don't think you will get the impression that attractive white women generally look similar; there is plenty of diversity among them. On the other hand, a preference for exotic looks is a matter of individual taste.

The real issue here is that men's perception of beauty is enormously skewed. hmm and other men, even myself, find Allessandra and other masculine women with breast implants attractive because the homosexual fashion "experts" of the world have given us that view. We are surrounded by breast implants and an off sense of beauty. The world drives men to be sexually attracted to perverted femininity. In the craziness of it all, truly beautiful women feel left out and incompetent. I find it all very sad. In all, I side with Erik on this one.

Nalendil: Hmm is a woman, not a man. It is not exactly the case that “the world drives men to be sexually attracted to perverted femininity,” but that given the absence of a mainstream outlet for the appreciation of feminine beauty and the widespread use of masculinized women for the purposes of modeling, a number of heterosexual men are not aware of the excellent examples of feminine beauty out there and are unable to see through fake femininity achieved via breast implants, posing tricks, etc. It is time for things to change.

To "hmm",

Why the nastiness about Camille? Are you Alessandra???

I think Camille is fine looking woman, except for the ultra thin eye-brows, most "dancers" have that trait perhaps to show as femininess as possible(not so sure just a shot in the dark). This is a real interesting site that really challenges the norms of society and views. I have always wondered why they featured pissed off looking models on the front covers of fashion magzines and wondering is this their idea of beauty, not that I am expert in these matters.

I agree that feminnie-types of beauty should more propagated, there is too much emphasis on masculinity in the world today. Everything in the world today emphansizes that everything has to be hard tough rugged strong.

Women are very important, feminine attributes shouldn't be overlooked.

hmm is female?

hmm: you should not take it so seriously.

Camille is just a given example of a feminine woman. She is also an attractive lady and you should come to Britain where the vast majority of women are unattractive and overweight, which is what you'd expect since unattractive people are more common that attractive people, which are rarer.

Humans have more genes than any other creature on earth so therefore there is more to 'go wrong'. Genetic variation is random and arises from random gene mutations (base substitutions, deletions, additions etc) regardless if the mutation is for the better or the worse.

Maybe Erik Holland can say why this face is not attractive.

Now this is an example of an unattractive face

Jessie Gilbert:


is that you or just a woman you hate? why pick on her?

That is so sad and depressing(Jessie Gilbert), poor girl, what a terrible loss of a smart young girl.

I had once lived in California and appearances can the most deceiving thing, also tiring.

Alessandra is in my opinion the best looking woman on the face of the earth! If you think otherwise just check out this photo.

and I cant find the other pic i was wanting to include but it would make a gay man staight. thats how beautiful she is. now alba is pretty good looking to but know where near alessandra. take a look at that pic and tell me you wouldnt like to hit that and if you say no. i will tell you that your a fudge packer!

Pineapple: I am sorry to hear about Jessie Gilbert. May her soul rest in peace. The major reason for her absence among the ranks of the attractive was the masculinization in her face.

On the other hand, your contention that unattractive individuals are more common than attractive ones because humans have more genes than others and thereby more things to go wrong is not quite correct. Living organisms are characterized by canalization of development, whereby physiological control attempts to channel development along a specified pathway as opposed to other possible pathways. The latter is achieved by involving multiple elements in the development of a structure, which ensures that if something goes wrong with one element then there is plenty of back up to lead to the desired outcome. Even though single-gene anomalies can lead to undesirable outcomes, genetic anomalies with functionally severe consequences are uncommon.

It is true that mutations are relevant to unattractiveness, but there are several other reasons behind the uncommonality of attractiveness, which would perhaps be a topic for a separate entry.

Andrew: The picture of Alessandra you linked to is blurry and not very informative. One can make out masculinization in her face and also her fake breasts. If heterosexual men not aware of Alessandra are shown your picture for the first time, some may consider her to be decent looking, though the appropriate response would be one of caution, i.e., not judging her unless one sees clearer pictures. The pictures shown above are clearer, and there are plenty of pictures at the site you got your picture from that more clearly bring out Alessandra’s masculinization, but you have not linked to any of these pictures.

Should a woman’s attractiveness be judged from obscure pictures or clear pictures? Besides, it is curious that you are willing to label me a homosexual for finding Alessandra more manly and hence less appealing than the more feminine women in the attractive women section of this site.

Erik, do you agree that sociaty is actually very linear and based almost entirely on looks and intelect?

Fuller lips are supposed to increase attractiveness, this is because they apprently represent resistance to disease.

But is there any evidence to suggest that fuller lips represent increased immunity to disease?
and if not why then find it attractive?

Ehh... I just think that if you think that Alessandra looks like a man then you have a impossible image of a woman... because she is good as it gets in my opinion. And Kristin as far as you argument I find Jessica alba gorgeous as well but there are some pretty good looking "white girls" such as Marisa Miller and Kiera Knightly. In today’s social makeup (I'm assuming most of you are from America) the population is so diverse that minorities are quickly becoming the norm. So the definition is unclear as to what a white woman is. Is a white woman a pale blue eye blonde hair girl, no. In my opinion Jessica Alba is a white woman. But I don’t think any one "race" is loosing there pretty girls. All ethnic groups have there drop dead gorgeous women. That’s all I’m saying. And Eric, models are the cream of the crop... that’s not to say that other women couldn’t take there place... at the college I attend, I see a different girl everyday that could take one of those models spots. They have just been lucky enough to be selected to display the beauty of women as a whole. So stop being so pessimistic about these girls. Because I have a hard time believing that you don’t find these women attractive.

The_Waheed: I am not sure what you are trying to get at, but factors other than looks and intellect matter, too. Personality, behavior, wealth, etc. also matter. Some people are more concerned with how spiritual others are and little concerned with how wealthy, good looking or intelligent other people are.

If thicker-than-population-average lips in women are appreciated, it isn’t because they indicate resistance to disease but because some processes have shaped the typical brain to appreciate this condition. Feminization is one factor that causes lip thickening, and a preference for thicker-than-population-average lips in women is consistent with a population-typical preference for above average femininity in women. Whether there is any correlation with disease resistance, I do not know.

Kristin: Take a good look at Alessandra’s newer pictures; her breasts look fake. Yes, there are tall, slender women with prominent natural breasts, but Alessandra is not one of them. As far as bust-waist-hip ratios are concerned, pictures of fashion models are much more informative about how feminine they are, and Alessandra’s pictures speak for themselves. Who is arguing that white women “are better by nature” than colored women? My argument is that an objective comparison cannot be made between individuals belonging to different ethnic groups.

Andrew: I have not said that Alessandra looks like a man; she certainly doesn’t. However, Alessandra is a masculine or manly woman; her face could be mistaken for that of an adolescent male transvestite’s, but not an adult male transvestite’s. Models may be selected to display the beauty of women, but those who do the selection will select women they find to be beautiful if they can get away with it, which in the fashion world translates to masculinized girls/women given the domination of the fashion business by homosexual men.

Alessandra Ambrosio looks more like an Italian girl or an Argentine rather than your typical Latina women which are typically short and fat. Latina women have circlaur or rounder shaped faces and/ or heads, whilst Alessandra has a retrangluar shaped face.

You all are smoking the crack pipe. She is hot end of discussion. This is the first thread i have ever read that says otherwise. For those of you that think she looks like an adolescent male transvestite, you my friends are the minority. And you are a very disturbed minority at that.

Erik, On your 'Solutions' section you mention that "great intelects, athletes and beauty are beyond the capability of most humans".

This is obviously not good enough and DNA needs to be reworked. IQ especially needs sorting out to give an average IQ of 200. The higher the IQ, the easier someones life will be.

Hans: IQ is not relevant to this site. Anyway, the majority of the hereditary contribution to variance in IQ is accounted for by additive genetics, i.e., the proper way to aim for higher genetically engineering IQs would be to manipulate multiple genes, which is a long ways off. An IQ of 200 is monstrous; an IQ of 120 is sufficient for a lot of scientific work, and Nobel Prize winners in science have an average IQ of approximately 140-145. If you consider that the correlation between brain volume and IQ is about 0.4, it should be obvious that achieving an average human IQ of 200, about 7 standard deviations higher than the current average of approximately 90, would require making the brain larger, which would need simultaneous increases in cranial size and female pelvic dimensions, and for aesthetic reasons also an all-around increase in human size lest we end up with huge heads and women with abnormally wide pelves, i.e., you are looking at genetic manipulation on the order of engineering a new species.

I read a little of the discussion over this website, and I have to say, THANK GOD someone commenting on this site is still firmly planted on EARTH! There is no way to talk anyone out of thinking that Victoria's Secret models are pretty!!!! We're lucky that somehow the media and general America isn't NEARLY as picky as Erik Holland, or we would all kill ourselves. Stop trying Erik!!!! Victoria's Secret models ARE NOT MASCULINE!!!! What you are saying is completely hilarious and WEIRD. And now you're talking about IQ's? Wow....

hmm fan: I will come up with a post on Victoria’s Secret models in a couple of days and then we shall see how feminine and attractive they are.

This explores both male and female

Hans: offers some interesting data, but I have previously addressed the shortcomings of its Virtual Miss Germany section as well as its use of Kate Moss to illustrate an example of how more childlike faces in women (pedomorphy) are a correlate of attractiveness. Elsewhere, I have pointed out that pedomorphy is not a correlate of beauty, but more childlike features in women that are seen as more attractive are preferred not because they are more childlike but because they represent either above average femininity and/or gracilization.

Erik: As an A-level student taking biology, I am interested to know how a human's perception of looks actually works, could you enlighten me?

I expect that is a natural sub-contious way of measuring 'how good' someone else's genotype is.

Also why has no one mentioned photography? Professionaly applied make-up, expert photographers and photo editing + airbrushing can drastically increase the looks of a model. Like those pictures comparing Alessandra Ambrosio

The only REAL way to judge attractiveness is by seeing a front view and profile view of a face with no makeup or editing.

Hans: The perception of attractiveness is a separate issue. It involves a comparison of the people that one sees with a reference mental template. The reference template is partly shaped by biological inheritance, honed by exposure to better looking people in accordance with latent preferences and also influenced by the social environment. Some people are more manipulable by the social environment than others.

Some correlates of beauty reflect the biological quality of the organism, but others just appeal to aesthetic biases without reflecting on the organism's biological quality. This terse statement is probably not very helpful to you, but elaborating upon this will require an extensive literature review, and if I do it, it will be in a new section.

You are right that make-up, photo-editing and airbrushing confound an assessment of attractiveness, but these techniques best camouflage skin blemishes and are not very successful with respect to overall face shape. To assess masculinity-femininity, skin details are not necessary, and if the model in question is famous, there will be plenty of multi-angle photographs of her available that easily allow one to judge how masculine-feminine she is, and some of these pictures will be sourced from the paparazzi and other low profile sources where airbrushing is not an issue.

camille is ugly she has bad teeth a pockmarked backside and horribly shaped body

Mike: Camille has a horribly shaped body? It appears that you are a homosexual.

Erik: Large eyes - Large eye to head size ratio is a major part of both attractiveness and feminity. Do you agree?

Hans: Somewhat bigger than average eyes are a correlate of beauty in women but not men.

Your site is informative it looks at the beauty issue from an interesting but objective perspective and i think it reaffirms the saying that "appearances can be deceptive". You analyse things as seperate parts and then look at the whole and make your judgement as to the overall femininity or masculinity of a woman based on what you have gathered from analysis of the seperate parts. Had fun reading it.... I think however people shouldnt take what they read on here too much to heart everyones entitled to there own opinion.

What do you mean by petite? whats your definition of petite? are you reffering to a height or a body build? I would have thought petite is as feminine as one can get with respect to height that is as since when has shorter height been a masculine trait?

Simon: Petite is in reference to body build (extent of slenderness/curvaceousness), not height. Alessandra is a tall woman and would not be appropriately referred to as petite with respect to height.

I agree with the founder of this site somewhat: Alexandra's face DOES look like a man's, she has enlarged jaw bones and thin lips, small teeth and also very "bony" body. KArolina Kurkova has gorgeous face despite her long nose, but she has very wide rib cage and it's not proportional to her body. Adriana Lima has the most GORGEOUS face of all of them, BUT...take a look at her legs(knees in particular), her knees are zig-zag bended the other way(very-very-very ugly legs). I agree that those Victorias Secret girls have their defects(we all do), but they look flashy because they are tall and in shape, they have no cellulite. I have respect for women who take care of them selves.

Regarding Jessica Alba --- she is my favorite actress, in my opinion, she is perfect: great body, big eyes, full lips, nice teeth. She looks amazing in "Into the Blue".

By the way, I don't think that Jessica Simpson or Paris Hilton are beautiful, in fact they are the most ugly girls on TV + neither of them has manners. Sorry for my poor English.

Can I just ask how many, or what sort of adolescent male transvestites the designer/editor of this site has seen? I can't say for certain that I have ever encountered one, but the male transvestites that I have seen in photographs or on television (bizarre programs like 'Maury' or 'Jerry Springer'- not trustworthy by most standards) are not at all comparable to the likes of the Victoria's Secret models. I am sure that if they did resemble one, they would be tremendously pleased with themselves for so accurately portraying such an acclaimed example of female beauty.

That said, I agree, or at least understand, most of what you've argued on this site. It is true that many (even most) high-fashion models have a tendency towards "masculine" features- high cheekbones, heavier brows (in general, more defined features- less of the softness, roundness associated with females), broader bodies, narrower torsos and hips; however, while your theory that this is related to the homosexual influence in the fashion world is interesting, there are certain variables and factors that contradict your theory, that you have to account- which (I'll admit I have not looked at the entire site), I don't believe you have.

First, although there are a great deal of homosexual fashion designers/photographers/clothiers/etc. involved in the world of fashion, there still exists a heterosexual influence (i.e., female designers- and no, they do not choose boyish females models because they are attracted to men-, straight male designers) and a need to appeal to a predominantly heterosexual society. As such, it cannot truly be assumed that the world of high-fashion chooses female models with masculine features because they resemble the young male transvestites that all gay fashion designers are attracted to- the idea is really pretty absurd. It can be said, though, that the perception or definition of female beauty in the world of high-fashion is a bit skewed- the extreme thinness, to start with, is a bit disgusting- if women, girls, who were merely slender, just a bit meatier, were used, their frames (?) would be equally as versatile, and they would likely be more attractive (it should be mentioned that the idea that all high-fashion models are naturally as skinny as they are is hard to believe- for that many women, already predispositioned to gain weight more easily than men, to have so very high metabolisms and to be so very thin, seems weird, but maybe I don't have a great enough understanding of human metabolism, or diet, or the prevalence of ectomorphs.

Second (and probably last, because I've already forgotten why exactly responding to this site is so important to me), perhaps it should be considered that the appearance of more masculine features on a feminine face or person is unusual, exotic, and therefore desired. Especially given all the mention of "exotic" beauties like Adrianna Lima and Jessica Alba (the latter of whom seems frankly more commonplace to me, aside from her coloring) this idea seems to be something that could factor in to the preference for high-fashion females models with seemingly incongruous features- the contrast of high cheekbones with fuller lips, of heavier brows with large eyes and long eyelashes is interesting and unusual, thus exotic and attractive. Of course, not all women with such combinations are incredibly attractive, and sometimes, the presence of overtly male features can be incredibly ugly- as well though, as the presence of overtly female features. I don't know if anyone has said this, but I don't think that women should be assumed to be ugly or unattractive just because they have masculine features or boyish bodies- in some cases, such women are attractive due to the overall impression of their features, but in other cases they may be less attractive for the same reason.

Might I also mention that the VS models are considerably more attractive than the typical runway model- there is a big difference between the type and features of models used strictly for fashion shows and runways, and those photographed for fashion magazines/ads/etc.

wtf?: Read carefully; the statement about Victoria’s Secret models uses the term transsexual, not transvestite. Male-to-female transsexuals, on average, look more feminine than male transvestites.

Your objections have been previously addressed. Yes, there are female designers, but the top ranks of the fashion business are dominated by homosexual men, and designers that are not male homosexual have to comply with the status quo. There is no implication within this site that all gay fashion designers are attracted to young male transvestite looks. For the central tendency of high-fashion models to approximate the looks of adolescent boys, it is sufficient that the majority of the dominant fashion designers have a high aesthetic appreciation for the looks of adolescent boys; all of them do not need to have this preference.

The central tendency among high-fashion models is not to combine masculine and feminine features but all-around masculinization. It could be supposed that there is a need for exotic-looking models, but how come the central tendency of such exotic looks bears an uncanny resemblance to adolescent boys? Ever heard of Occam’s razor? What is the most parsimonious explanation given the gay domination of the top ranks of the fashion business? A rebuttal to a great deal of apologetics has been provided on the “skinny fashion models” page; read it.

Speaking of Victoria’s Secret models, they are currently being addressed in a multi-part series; see Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3. Go through these entries and notice the masculinization and fake breasts in the three top-ranked Victoria’s Secret models addressed so far. What possible justification could there be in using masculinized women with fake breasts for lingerie modeling other than the homosexuals responsible not willing to tolerate anything beyond the minimum femininity that it takes to get the job done? If this minimum femininity can be achieved via breast implants and posing tricks, then the homosexuals would be only too happy to avoid using feminine women. One could argue that the women in question are being used because they are famous, but whose aesthetic preferences have made these women famous in the first place?

To Eric Holland:


I would like to know your opinion about Natalia Glebova(Miss Universe 2005) Do you find her beautiful? Thank you for any input.

Svitlana: Natalie Glebova looks good. She is not that feminine, but looks a lot better than the current Miss Universe, Zuleyka Mendoza (see a comparison).

Hans: The women that you have cited appear to be normal; there is nothing especially feminine or masculine about them. Anyway, please email off-topic queries to me instead of posting them here.

Erik would you class aishwarya rai as feminine or masculine?

Simon: Addressing the masculinity-femininity of Aishwarya Rai forces one to deal with an ancestry confound. If you look at this picture (Aishwarya is at the bottom left), it should be obvious that her face is in between Europeans and East Asians. Therefore, compared to Europeans norms, the reduced angularity, broader face, more protruding jaws, etc. of Aishwarya cannot readily be ascribed to femininity.

Aishwarya also has a very flat forehead in profile view, but it cannot be assumed that the smoothness and reduced curvature have anything to do with greater femininity. Flat forehead profiles are most extensively found among sub-Saharan Africans and aborigines ranging from India through southeast Asia to Australo-Melanesia. The sub-Saharan African/aboriginal element is strongest in the southern portion of India where Aishwarya is from.

If you are aware of face variation as a function of ethnicity and sexual dimorphism you will not conclude that Aishwarya has a feminine face, but it is not manly either; it just looks normal.

If you look at her physique though, there is no doubt that Aishwarya is not feminine, though once again one would not call her manly. Her backside is flattened, her ribcage is broad, her shoulders and waist lean toward wide and her physique doesn’t come anywhere close to an hourglass figure.

I don't even know where to begin. You are more full of bullshit than anyone else I have ever come across. Why don't you just shoot yourself and stop trying to convince the other 99.9999999% of the world that such beautiful women are manly? You're fighting a lost and retarded cause.

the maker of this site has absolutely the worst taste in women I have ever seen.. if you think that ambrosio has a masculine figure, this practically means that you think she is gorgeous but you just wish she was a man when in fact so that is the only side you see of her. open your damn eyes and notice that she is one of the top models for victoria secret and many people would give anything to even see what she looks like in person and not just in front of a camera. if you like men and are homosexual, that does not mean you have to degrade the top models in the world to TRY and make other people see things the way you do and see the masculinity of them. 99.9% of men love petite girls and not obese girls. when a girl is petite, she is petite all over her body, even in the face. So quit being a homosexual and go put pictures of naked fat guys all over your computer so you can judge them every day and quit degrading women that everyday men love to look at and every day women wish they could be.

oh and one more thing dumbass... my girlfriend is shorter, petite, and not as skinny in the face.. would you consider her a man? your an idiot, get a life fag

Soccer: Talk about chutzpah, not to mention insanity! An apparent homosexual calling the webmaster a derogatory term for homosexuals! Alessandra is not masculine because she is slender. Here is a woman skinnier than Alessandra but obviously much more feminine. Besides, the woman that Alessandra is compared to is petite but clearly more feminine. The women shown in the attractive women section are far from obese. Additionally, most men in Western societies prefer women with a normal amount of body fat rather than women that are slender or obese.

Erik, the way you master those stupid, brainwashed, glamour glare dazzled suckers, that have no exquisit taste. It is so obvious and photos are evident proof. Is there a team behind the name? You don't lack patience either. Obviously, women take it too personal and men... well feed them for 20 years with medieval images and see wether they would have the same preferences.
I myself think that ordinary look does not equate with lack of beauty, and vice versa exotic does not equate grand beauty. Although, majority people often do have too many flaws to be called beautiful. Also, many people I know don't find fat lips attractive, many address them as herpes look, or bee stung.
How would you describe face of Gwyneth Paltrow? It was a fine one when she was younger, if you dismiss her sharp jaw.
best regards

Bron: One individual, not a team is behind my name. Lip thickness varies across populations and the norm for one population may be aesthetically too thin or too thick for another. However, for a given population, somewhat above average lip thickness is generally preferred among women. Gwyneth Paltrow has always looked ordinary to me; nothing special about her looks.

all right, many people call such looks "ordinary"; but it is also perefect, I could not think of better one regarding such fine, flawless nose, fine lips and nicely wide set eyes. Of course, that is only in the movies, on the photos she looks too bony, long faced,large jaw etc. But why do so many people say Grace Kelly is such a stunning beauty, what is so good about her? Did you say you don't want photos to be sent on this site? Where could I send them, if I want to demonstrate ?

Bron: I didn’t say people should not email me pictures. What I said was that women who wish to be featured in the attractive women section should not send me their nude pictures.

I want to send some pictures for your opinion, not to be added in any section of your site, and I don't know what is your e mail
Also,If it is not too much to ask, could you read the article on the following page : explain, whether healthy or unhealthy body size ( don't mean fat , you have explained that) have also any impact on perceiving beauty

Just becuase a face may show a high level of femininity, it doesn't neccassrily mean that it will be attractive - therefore faces ranked as 'normal' or even 'masculine' could show a much higher level of beauty.

Bron: Click on the “email” link toward the top right of this page and you will be taken to a page that mentions my email address. The article that you have linked to has a couple of problems. It features an ethnicity confound. Differences in longevity between ethnic groups can easily be a function of genetic differences unrelated to height, diet and/or environmental factors. Additionally, in multi-ethnic populations, some ethnic groups may not be representative of their group of origin. The article also mentions evidence from studies on dogs, but dog breeding has been heavily manipulated by humans for a variety of reasons, including size, but longevity considerations have probably been absent. Evidence from caloric restriction studies is also not the best evidence since this affects body weight for a given height/length in addition to height/length.

One would expect a non-linear relationship between height and longevity such that longevity is greatest for people in the neighborhood of average height for their ethnic group. Anyway, the article addresses height, and as far as the height-beauty association goes, it doesn’t address it except saying that tallness is socially valued in men. Somewhat above average height [not too tall] is generally considered aesthetically pleasing, especially in men. Fertility cues are a correlate of attractiveness, and these cues include evidence of sex hormone profile in physical appearance. Since part of the reason women are shorter than men is their development under greater estrogen levels, men with above average height and women with below average height will tend to have, on average compared to others of their ethnic group, below average estrogen levels and above average estrogen levels, respectively. Since above average fertility in men corresponds to below average estrogen levels and above average fertility in women corresponds to above average estrogen levels, one would expect to see aesthetic appreciation of tall men and somewhat below average height women in so far as fertility cues go. The height preference in women is shifted in opposite directions by fertility considerations and a general aesthetic preference for taller people. Therefore, one would expect the aesthetic preference for tallness among men to be much stronger than in women. As far as the general population is concerned, the height of a woman would not be an important consideration from a beauty standpoint unless the woman happens to be very short or very tall.

Hanssss: You are correct that femininity and attractiveness in women are not synonyms, but I have not implied anything to the contrary. However, femininity is a very powerful correlate of beauty in women. For a comparison within the same ethnic group, the only way a masculinized female face is going to be rated more attractive than a feminized female face by the general population is if the feminine face is malformed/has some notable anomalies or abnormalities.

HI, i have viewed many fashion & beauty sites but this is the first time ive ever felt compeled to email a site,
i think your opinions especially regarding Alessandra Ambrosio are completly retarded.
i am not going to go into specifics of what you said as i disagree with it all.
I think the fact that the models you are slating are making millions each year while you are sitting at home bitching about whats wrong with them speaks volumes about you.
I also notice you havent posted a section on yourself so if you would like to add one, i would be happy tear that to pieces for you, as im quite confident it will be far from perfect.

I truely believe that Alessandra Ambrosio is the closest thing to perfection that there ever has been or ever likely to be.

Could you also please post a picture of someone who you think is beautiful (if there is anyone good enough for you) as i would like to see what your idea of beauty is NOT what it isnt

i also believe you should change the name from "" which it ISNT to "" which IT IS

However if it was Stevie wonder who wrote this article i retract my comments, have a nice day


Parnzz: I have pointed out masculinization in Alessandra Ambrosio, which is not mere opinion; it is obvious from her pictures. For further clarification about her masculinization, see her being addressed in the context of being a lingerie model for Victoria’s Secret.

This entry is not about nitpicking on flaws in Alessandra’s looks; it is about how masculine-feminine she is, which is relevant given that she is one of the big “sexy” fashion models out there. My looks are irrelevant to addressing this topic. I suppose that you would be pleased if I turned out to be effeminate, but my looks would disappoint you in this regard.

If you wish to see pictures of feminine women that most people would consider better looking then Alessandra, go though the attractive women section of this site (see navigation column toward the top left part of the page).

Erik: The people who choose the models/model scouts, may specifically look for people who are a bit adrogynous looking.

Hans: May? They are obviously looking for what the fashion designers want, and we know what it is.

if designers thought these women (Alessandra, Adriana, and Jessica) were masculine, they wouldn't be where they are now. And by the way, about your pictures of that Andrea girl (yes, girl)from, The Czech Republic is notorious for young ladies voluntarily being prostitutes.

Oh, and one more thing: Alessandra's breasts are assuredly not fake. She has said before that she hates plastic surgery.

phred: If fashion designers thought that the likes of Alessandra were masculine, they wouldn’t be where they are now? Are you insane? Alessandra Ambrosio is where she is now because of her masculinization; if she were feminine she would most likely not be a fashion model.

Regardless of Alessandra’s professed views on cosmetic surgery, she appears to have sported breast implants for some time. When a skinny, masculine and small-breasted young adult woman like Alessandra starts packing a prominent bust without having gained fat elsewhere, what is the most likely inference?

The Czech Republic is notorious for young ladies voluntarily being prostitutes? I’ll have to say this is B.S. Besides, your attempt to suggest that Andrea may be a prostitute does not make Alessandra Ambrosio, Jessica Alba and Adriana Lima look feminine. Further, the era when women involved in nude/semi-nude modeling were prostitutes is long past.

Okay, Erik: there are two things you need to start reading: National Geographic and Wikipedia.

1) Alessandra stated that her first and only plastic surgery was on her ears, and that she didn't want to go through the pain again (I'm paraphrasing here).

2)Nat. Geo. stated that the economy in The Czech Republic was becoming poor through the recent reforms, therefore forcing many young ladies into "putting their bodies on sale."
I never used Andrea as a way to promote the other ladies, or said that she WAS a prostie. I meant she MIGHT be, possibly involuntarily.Thank you and have a nice day.

Just re-read my source, and I was wrong about the first comments about the Czechs. Sorry about the confusion.

How come there are so many women with masculine features?

phred: You ignore pictures of Alessandra like this, which show her to be much more bustier than her earlier pictures even though she is masculine and very skinny elsewhere, and paraphrase a statement by her to argue that she has not had breast implants. What is this?

You did not mention which article in National Geographic. Anyway, it is known that an increase in poverty forces more women into prostitution, but the actual proportion of women involved remains low for countries like the Czech Republic, and these women would typically be less attractive than Andrea. Andrea can make money from glamour modeling, and surely does not need to prostitute herself to make ends meet.

Hans: Please stop posting off-topic comments here; email them to me instead. An A-level student like you cannot figure out why there are plenty of masculinized women around? Look up sexually antagonistic selection.

why are you people arguing who is more feminine/masculine and what makes a woman more masculine/feminine? it's personal choice. every single woman in the world has physical flaws- and what might be a flaw to one person might be desirable to another. get over yourselves, and instead of looking to make this or that women feel terrible about their bodies and what they look like, why don't you men attempt instead to make all women know they are as beautiful as they are. that's all this woman has to say :)

its ridiculous you think aish. rai is european at all. first off roughhly 1/4 -1/3 of all indians have greenish eyes. secondly she never validates ANY claims she is mixed. her skin is brown , and her hair is NOTHING like a european. its plentiful, heavy, and waved. her build is typical of an indian. thy tend to have flatter bums and narrow arms/legs due to less muscle/bone density. she is somoewhat bradbacked---but sh is not mixed. india is a massive place, fullof genetic diversity. all europeans don't look the same. is that because the english or swedes are mixed? in africa there are many shades of colorinng in the sme country. thi is true in japan, china, korea. they rane from ice pale to honeyed browns.

also--don't you think they just irbrush in alessandra's breasts? cuz in non edited pictures she looks flatter.same with adriana.

Allwomenrock: This entry/site is not about picking on flaws in women or attempting to make women feel bad about their shortcomings. You should read the FAQ to understand the site purpose. There are many scenarios where feminine models are required but masculinized ones are used instead. Something needs to be done about this, which is what this site is doing.

Kristin: I did not say that Aishwarya Rai is European; what I said is that her face shape is in between Europeans and East Asians, as evident from the picture cited. There is no way 25-33% of people in India have greenish eyes; the great majority there has dark brown eyes. Historically, people from different continents, including Europeans, have migrated toward India and subsequently mixed to some extent. Therefore, part-European ancestry, mostly not of recent origin, is expected in many Indians, including Aishwarya Rai.

I have seen recent informal/candid pictures of Alessandra Ambrosio where her breasts appear large and not attributable to push-up bras. How did her breasts get notably large without the rest of her gaining weight?

i think its cuz she is a master poser and dresses to enhance. here is a recent victoria secret shoot pre photoshop

Erik Holland:
Why are you dictating what is necessary for a woman to be "attractive?" different people find different types of body parts/bodies attractive. to some people, a large butt on a girl might be attractive; others prefer a smaller butt. some people might find women with more athletic bodies attractive, and others women with a little meat on them more so. i do agree that at times the modeling industry can promote only a few body types as being "ideal" or even so far as "normal," but this site has gone far beyond that. you're basically saying that pear-shaped and/or hour-glass shaped women alone have a "normal" body form. maybe in your opinion, that is the "ideal" body form. nice for you. other men might prefer a woman who is h-shaped or v-shaped or apple-shaped. these women are just as normal, and as long as they take care of their bodies by eating right and exercising, nobody should feel they have the right for putting them down or saying they're "manly" for what they cannot control. liking them does not make a man prone to homosexuality; it just makes his view different from yours. maybe you should do something the modeling industry has trouble doing: respect all women of all shapes and sizes, stop telling them how to look/dress, and for god's sakes, make them feel good about their bodies. ALL types of bodies.

Kristin: I don’t know how recent your photo is, but her breasts do not look natural in the picture. Look at these three pictures, where padded bras/posing do not appear to be a factor: Pic1, Pic2, Pic3. Pictures 1 and 2 either represent recent breast implants or photoshop manipulation, but picture 3 seems to have been taken in an informal setting. I suspect that she has gotten breast implants, but you are right, I should not be stating my suspicion as if it is a fact; I wouldn’t bet my money on it.

Allwomenrock: I am not dictating what is required for a woman to be attractive; I am just pointing what most people, most women included, find physically attractive in women. Whereas it is true that people vary in their preferences, most individuals aesthetically prefer above average femininity in the looks of women; you should read this. This site is not arguing that women who do not look feminine are abnormal, and neither is it concerned with telling women how to dress/look. Addtionally, absence of femininity does not equate to manly looks; feminine- and masculine-looking women lean toward the opposite ends of the trait distribution curve, and there are plenty of women in between that are neither describable as feminine nor as masculine. This site cannot portray all types of bodies as equivalent since it is trying to promote feminine beauty, and even if it weren’t, this would still not be possible since it simply isn’t the case; it is not possible to make people find all body types equally acceptable. People have a basic aesthetic sense; read about a study from Iran here; people who fall short of their own aesthetic standards will not be pleased with their looks.

Since most people prefer feminine beauty in women, feminine beauty should naturally occupy an exalted position in the public, achieved by the elevation of women possessing feminine beauty rather than the derogation of women who do not possess it, but this is far from the case. There should be no need to put down women who lack feminine beauty. Contrasting masculinized fashion models/beauty pageant contestants with feminine women is necessary to bring aesthetics issues to pubic attention; the comparisons should not be seen as an attempt to put down masculinized women. Once again, if masculinized women are used when feminine ones are needed, it is time to do something about it.

So, by basically insulting these "masculinized" models, you're "doing something about it?" Making sarcastic comments like "Sexy physique, isn't it?" or "Backside, where hast thou gonst?" isn't going to make people who disagree with you listen to a word you say.

And you keep saying "most people think this" or "most people think that." Rather than make such assertions without proof, instead of basing this entire site on insulting women in the modeling industry, why don't you show statistics that prove your point? Unless, of course, your points can't be proven by what other people have to say because most disagree with you. Because from what I see here, it seems all your argument is a bunch of charts comparing facial and body structures and making fun of women unless they have a certain face shape, body shape, and weight.

and the one study you did include does not matter. one study, as any scientist will tell you about any subject, does not "prove" anything. it has to be shown over and over again that the same outcome comes out every time before a hypothesis, such as this or that in a woman makes her more "feminine," could be stated as a "truth."

in the end, what men (and/or women) want to see in fashion models specifically will not matter. fashion models are there to show off the clothes, not to be pleasing to the eye. w/e the fashion industry wants in a model, they're going to show off. personally, i think it would be in their better interest to show off a broad range of females in different types of clothes. people would be more interested in buying clothes if they thought they'd look in good in them.

eric--both pf the pics you used display the power or a. padded bras, and the second one, of airbrushing. whenever there are deep shadows and obvious highlighting---that is photoshop. the first pictures was to show off a highly padded bra from victoria's secret. many of their bras add on 2 cup sizes for the wearer. so water is probably filling out that cup. most models wouldn't get implants simply because it ruins their chances at high fashion work.

Kristin: Of course, padded bras increase bust clothes; they do not increase the actual size of the breasts. In Pic1 of my previous comment, her breasts are way too large for her, and the padded bras have nothing to do with the large-breasted appearance in so far as the exposed parts of the breasts are concerned. In Pic 2, her breasts -- the exposed parts -- look fake; look closely at the context, i.e., a slender man-faced woman with such prominent breasts...doesn’t look natural. If Pic 2 represents photoshop work, then why didn’t the artist make her breasts look more natural? Regarding fashion models getting implants, the teenage ones typically don’t, but some of those in their twenties, after having already established themselves in their teens, do get breast implants since they have enough status to get away with implants, and the implants will also make them more suitable for lingerie modeling.

Allwomenrock: I prefaced the discussion of “sexy” fashion models by mentioning that there is no nice way of saying that the emperor has no clothes; the argument rests on pictures, not the comments on the pictures. People who would dismiss what is evident in the pictures because of the comments on them are probably wasting their time browsing this site. Please do not belittle this site by saying that it is making fun of women unless they have specific looks. The women spoken of in unflattering terms are some fashion models and beauty pageant contestants, and the unflattering comments are typically nothing more than an accurate description of their looks. To describe unfeminine looks as not feminine is not to belittle unfeminine looks.

Do not conclude, judging by the comments, that most people disagree with me. People disturbed by this site are more likely to leave a comment than those who agree with it.

What do you mean by the “one study” that I included? I have cited many studies to support my contentions. For instance, the paper addressed here, specifically showing that most people strongly prefer faces with above average femininity among women, doesn’t just cite one study, but a meta-analysis, i.e., a synthesis of multiple studies on the subject. I have emphasized “most people” because the aforementioned link refutes your contention that I have not been citing statistics to prove my points.

I agree with you that the fashion industry will choose the kinds of models it wants, but the choices are creating a lot of problems, and at the very least the reasons behind its choices need to be explained to the general public.

This site really pisses me off. I don't understand how you can call such beautiful women ugly and masculine...they have made names for themselves because they are so beautiful. Different men like all different kinds of women, and you cannot say that YOUR opinion is the opinion of MOST men, because I can assure you every single man I have ever met, including my own father (who is a "lifetime exclusive heterosexual male") find them attractice! They are beautiful, just get over it and stop criticizing them! How would you like it if someone made a website criticizing you and every flaw on your body?? The models are not attacking anyone, but everybody seems to attack them for just being skinny. And Alessandra Ambrosio does NOT have breast implants. Do some damn research before you claim these kinds of things. FYI, Victorias Secret bras can do AMAZING things...they can make a B Cup look like a large C, which is what they do with Alessandra. Don't hate on her for being naturally small chested. I am a B Cup, so are you going to call me unattractive and masculine, because I don't have huge boobs? There are all kinds of body types out there...all kinds of shapes. And not everybody is an hourglass shape, and I dont think that people should try to look some way that they arent. No matter how much weight some people gain gain or lose, they are not going to look that way, because it isnt natural for them. Stop making gross generalizations, like "real heterosexual" men hate supermodels, and "real" women are hourglass and can't have strong features. Because being a woman, I can tell you that Alessandra looks very classy to me, I wouldnt mind looking like her :) But those women you posted are the kind that show up on those internet porn sites. No man or woman goes on those sites to admire their bodies or beauty, they are looking at in an animalistic fashion, just at the sex acts going on or the suggestive poses. Which is okay, that is the point of porn. But those women arent on the internet because they are anything special, they are just the ones willing to post naked pictures!
Ah that is a mouthful :)
But really this site is very insulting to me, because you are making generalizations that frankly arent true.

Erik, please stop trying to force your opinions of femininity onto everyone. You are not an expert on femininity. Femininity is SUBJECTIVE. It CAN'T be studied. Hell, anyone who is a woman is "feminine" technically. How the hell can you say a woman is not feminine? That's like saying a car is not a mode of transportaion. And what's with all your talk about white women having a more feminine shape? What? The most curvy people I've seen were African American and Latina. Hell, a lot of white girls I've seen have NO shape at all, let alone a feminine waist-to-hip ratio.

People know what's beautiful, okay? You can't teach them what's beautiful. You continuously call women "male transvestites" and "transsexuals" and that's so completely and utterly dumb and insulting. Hell, with some transsexual women, you can't even TELL they were born men. Oh and I could see the difference between Alessandra and the "average girl." Especially when it came to the body. The "average girl's" body actually looks more "masculine" than Alessandra's at some angles.

But, yeah. Just because you like certain women and just because you've done "tests" doesn't mean you're right. No one's preferences are going to change just because you don't like celebrities or models. Everyone isn't shaped like your dream girls, so don't make fun of them. They are beautiful in their own ways. The fact that beauty is so diverse (skinny girls, curvy girls, big girls) makes the world all the more awesome. And about the "average girls" you say most guys look over, those are the girls that most guys get! They're not going to get the celebrity or the model. Hello? As I said before, beauty can't be taught. You continuously talk about people being shallow and such about beauty and skipping over the "real" beauty, but you're being shallow and choosy yourself. That's so hypocritical. How about you celebrate ALL the different types of beauty? Or is that so hard?

in pic 1 and 3 she is wearing a padded bra. in pic 2, there is serious airbrushing. i know because i learned in school how to digitally alter pics.
i know the bras are padded cuz they are from victoria secret--the angel and desire line(i think, but search for the original pics)-- find them on the website. they explain they are padded.

Sarah: I have not called Alessandra ugly, but she is evidently masculine and has made a name for herself because she appeals to the gays who dominate the fashion business. Lifetime-exclusive heterosexual men may find her decent looking if they haven’t seen enough of her, but get them to go through this site and see how many find Alessandra attractive. This entry is not about criticizing her flaws, but about pointing out her masculinization. Regarding her breasts, once again go through three pictures of her -- Pic1, Pic2, Pic3 -- and answer the following. Padded bras do make the bust larger, but they do not increase actual breast size. How do you explain her large [actual] breasts in Pic 1? Photoshop or implants or both. Kristin has not answered the question I posed regarding Pic 2, namely that if it represents photoshop work, then why didn’t the artist make her breasts look more natural?

This site is not attacking models but critiquing the people/circumstances responsible for selecting skinny and masculine models. I am not going to call any woman unattractive and masculine because she has a B-cup; women with small breasts can look feminine and attractive (see Table 1 here). This site is not about how women should try to look like. None of the generalizations that you accuse the site of making are being made here. The nude models shown within this site are taken from a variety of sources, many non-pornographic. Most of the nude models in the attractive women section are not porn stars. The nude models selected for various illustrative purposes are selected for their looks, not because there is anything special about them; most nude models will not be shown here because they don’t have the looks that illustrate the arguments being made.

Mar: Physical femininity has been studied and is objectively assessed; go through the feminine vs. masculine page. If curves made a woman feminine, obese women would be the most feminine, but they are more masculine, on average, than normal women. Just as some men being shorter than most women does not undermine the argument that men, on average, are taller than women, the existence of masculinized white women does not undermine evidence that women with the most overall feminine appearance tend to be disproportionately white.

I am not teaching anyone what is beautiful, but pointing out what most people’s idea of beauty is. Women are not being called male transvestites and transsexuals here. Some models and beauty pageant contestants have the looks of male transvestites and male-to-female transsexuals, and pointing this out is simply an accurate description of their looks, which I would normally avoid, but it is necessary within this site. Beauty is diverse and in the form of skinny girls, curvy girls and big girls? Whereas almost all people will be found attractive by at least some, some people are considered attractive by most, and the skinny and obese are not among those that most find attractive. The majority has the right to appreciate what it finds beautiful, and it is high time there were some mainstream outlet for what the majority finds most appealing in the looks of women, namely feminine beauty.

erik-- it is sometimes difficult depending o the pose and lighting of that pic to make a airbrushing look natural. but the airbrushing is extremely obvious. also you have not explained why the pic i showed--which is recent, shows her with a small chest----cuz its not airbrushed!! the girls displayed in fhm and maxim are all airbrushed. it looks fake to me, but men are fooled, so sloppy execution goes by unchided. also the distinct purpose of padded bras is to make the chest seem larger---within clothing. so the push-up effect of the bra cup being stuffed with cloth/gel/liquid is to be expected. and yes, unfortunately victoria secret uses all these materials to enhance chests along with interesting seaming on the bra. maybe you should take a girl friend to their store and witness for your self the transformation.

Erik, you ARE trying to say what's beautiful and not. And as I said, beauty is SUBJECTIVE. You keep saying what "most" people like. What about the people in other socieities? In some societies, the most feminine woman is the biggest. What do you have to say to that?

And what about the people in this society who like what you don't? Femininity is, again, SUBJECTIVE.

And you ARE calling women male transvestites if you call models male transvestites (Which is a term for people who get aroused by dressing up. A better word would be "crossdresser." You should know that if you're so smart). Don't try to jump over that one. What, people feel better because you didn't personally point them out? There are people who look like models naturally and I'm sure they'd be deeply hurt hearing someone call someone who looks like them "male transvestites." Not only is that a HEAVY exaggeration (Sorry, but if you ran one of your little "tests" 99.9% of people would recognize that these ladies are women. Oh, and as I said before, all male transsexual don't even look like men and you'd be hardpressed to figure out that they were born male.), but it's obviously hurtful. Unfortunately, you can't see that over your big, "My femininity is the right femininity" head. Oh, and White women being the most feminine is so biased. YOU determined what femininity is and since White women fit your idea of femininity, White women are more "feminine" than other races. Right...

As I said before, why don't we celebrate the beauty of ALL women? Everyone isn't going to be the feminine you like, but they are still beautiful, anyway. I believe that we should have naturally thin women, naturally curvy women, etc. We should show people all the diversity that nature has to offer and show young women that no matter what they're size is, they are beautiful. Your idea of feminine beauty would exclude women who don't fit in it.

Sorry, but even if most guys had a "decent look at her (Alessandra)," they would still find her attractive. Please stop trying to justify that just because YOU are not attracted to something, everyone else isn't or shouldn't be (The greatest insult is to tell a man that something is wrong with him if he's attracted to something you are not). Some guys like women with long necks and broad shoulders. And most people don't notice the "broad ribs" you speak of. Yes, they're don't have any curves, but they are obviously women, not adolescenet boys.

I am always pleased to meet different people on the net and to read their views regarding the issues of beauty, fashion, and aesthetics and was equally disturbed by this site as many visitors are and find it distasteful that an adult man would result to borderline racially offensive rhetoric to make his point by using such terms as "swarthy" to describe people with relatively darker shades of skin and to imply that women with more European features are more internationally admired than women with other ethnic features given also the fact that his knowledge is very limited regarding different ethnic groups and attempts to tell people more about what their own ethnic heritage is. Though Mr. Holland is entitled to his views and so are others who share them, they must have the courtesy to present their views as merely opinions, not as the formulaic and scientific standard of what beauty is.

My email is eval(unescape('%64%6f%63%75%6d%65%6e%74%2e%77%72%69%74%65%28%27%3c%61%20%68%72%65%66%3d%22%6d%61%69%6c%74%6f%3a%73%61%68%6e%65%5f%67%68%61%73%68%61%6e%67%40%79%61%68%6f%6f%2e%63%6f%6d%22%3e%73%61%68%6e%65%5f%67%68%61%73%68%61%6e%67%40%79%61%68%6f%6f%2e%63%6f%6d%3c%2f%61%3e%27%29%3b')) and would love to correspond with inteligent, level headed people in exploring the subject of beauty along with all of its applications, meanings, and values that it has for people.

I am copying and pasting something I had left in another thread for visitors about my views regarding the fashion industry and would like to share them with others:

I have left comments on another thread and am always happy to come across people who like to discuss the subjects of beauty, fashion, and aesthetics and all that pertain to these.

Like several visitors of this site, I am equally disturbed by Mr. Holland's borderline racially offensive rhetoric, namely his use of the word "swarthy" in an attempt to describe ethnic groups with relatively darker shades of skin and his bold assertion that women with more European (and he just uses the broad term European as if it is homogeneous in some of what he says and contradicts what he says before when he says that Europeans have the most variety) features are more admired than women with fewer or no European features at all because of the increased femininity that comes with having more European ancestry. Based on this logic, one would have to conclude that men with European ancestry are more likely to be feminine than men with less European ancestry, which of course is an absurd conclusion, but this is the only conclusion that can be reached based on Mr. Holland's assertions.

He furthermore attempts to tell people about their own racial composition and the racial composition of their native countries when he is in fact no visitor to those countries and his comments make it evident that he has a poor method of categorizing people.

I really like to share my views regarding the modeling industry and enjoy corresponding with others who are interested in this subjected. Below I have copied and pasted my views.

ooops, looks like i posted 2wice, sorry for the inconvenience readers.

For the record, alessandra is a gorgeous classy looking woman and she is a work of art, not vulgarity like Mr. Holland's aweful alternative, Camile.

Camile does have a rather unpleasant looking face, in my opinion, small eyes, an aweful looking nose, compared to the finely chizeled nose of alessandra, and those cheap looking thin eyebrows.

I recently had a nose job, and actually wished my nose could have been as finely chizeled as Alessandra's, but I guess there is a limit to what a plastic surgeon can accomplish. At any rate, I had once commented on how Iranians are big fans of cosmetic surgery, namely nose jobs because that is the one area on which they try to acquire a more Europeanized look, the noses tend to be rather acquialine, which is a shame on the part of Iranians who can't accept their particular nasal configurations, but its a reality nonetheless. However, tall women, even as tall as 6 feet are considered attractive and so are long necks because they are a less common feature in a country whose citizens are mostly short. Some of us Iranians think that we are the most beautiful women in the world because of the structure of our eyes and and wideset eyebrows, which many do agree, but again, I will say it is just an opinion, not necessarily a reflection of every person's taste.

Actually another common surgery among many women, not just Iranians who are also fans of it, is cheek augmentation through which they attempt to acquire higher, more prominent looking cheekbones, those resembling that of many famous female celebrities, models included.

The simple fact that Mr. Holland was not under the impression, as he so claimed, that Iranians are as much into cosmetic surgery as they are now, is a clear indication that he does not know what beauty is for different people. For example, it would be worthwhile to research what type of cosmetic operation is most common among today's generation of Japanese women in Japan in order to draw conclusions about their particular aesthetic preferences.

In the US, the most popular cosmetic surgeries are liposuction and breast enhancement given the high numbers of overweight people and the popularity of having large breasts.

These are all fascinating subjects for me and I would love to explore them in greater depth with individuals who are also interested in them.

Kristin: Pic 2 is easy for an artist to work with, and I don’t see why a sufficiently skilled artist would have a difficult time making digitally enlarged breasts look natural. Once again, I don’t know how recent your posted picture is, but her breasts don’t look natural in the picture; she also has her arms lifted, which would make her breasts look smaller. I have already mentioned that padded bras make the bust larger, but in Pic 1, the exposed part of Alessandra’s breasts is simply too large to be explained by breast tissue pushed to the side by the padding.

Mar: If I am saying what is beautiful and what is not and if beauty is subjective, why do you give a rat’s? Shouldn’t most others, who apparently have their own ideas about beauty, just dismiss this site? I think you know the answer.

I will entertain the idea that beauty is subjective if you refute evidence to the contrary cited within this site; see this page as it links to various pages within this site that address objective correlates of beauty. Note that the page linked to addresses the fact that people in some cultures find obesity in women attractive, but this still does not undermine the claim that there is a lot that is objective about beauty.

You have completely ignored, let alone refuted, the evidence showing the objectivity of femininity on the feminine vs. masculine page. If femininity is subjective, why should anyone be offended if some women are described as looking like male-to-female transsexuals or having a face reminiscent of an adolescent male transvestite?

A person who gets sexually aroused by cross-dressing is known as a transvestic fetishist, not a transvestite. Once again, I am not calling models male transvestites; just pointing out that some of them have the looks of male-to-female transsexuals and, to a lesser extent, male transvestites. Obviously there are male-to-female transsexuals who look within the range of female variation, but they don’t overall look like feminine women. As far as most people recognizing fashion models in general as women goes, this is of course true, but there are surely masculinized women around who can be easily distinguished from the feminine ones. If you are going to dispute the assertion that women with the most overall feminine appearance tend to be disproportionately white, then you must refute the evidence cited or else don’t bring up the point again. Note that the evidence cited in the section linked to is in the form of numerical data, not pictures; the pictures merely illustrate the arguments.

Men who find Alessandra Ambrosio attractive after being well-aware of her looks will generally not be offended by my describing their sexual orientation; they already know about it and often will not have a problem with who they are. Most people are aware of the diversity of form among women; I don’t need to be showing it. If you want to celebrate the beauty of all women, please go ahead and do so and I wish you good luck, but this site is about promoting feminine beauty. I don’t see why you have a problem with this site if beauty and femininity are subjective.

Aileen: Spamming is not allowed. Do not post the same comment in multiple entries. I replaced the comment you copied from elsewhere with a link to the comment. You have accused me of making “borderline racially offensive rhetoric” to make my points by using “such terms as “swarthy” to describe people with relatively darker shades of skin.” Calling swarthy individuals swarthy is borderline racially offensive?

Is it also “borderline racially offensive rhetoric” to cite literature that non-European women with facial features closer to European norms are more admired around the globe than more ethnic-looking women? I don’t see how, but if anyone feels so, please remember that this site is not about political correctness. If you don’t like my argument, refute its premises; don’t accuse me of making offensive statements.

You wrote:


he just uses the broad term European as if it is homogeneous in some of what he says and contradicts what he says before when he says that Europeans have the most variety

I am tired of your misunderstanding/misrepresenting my arguments. To use the word European is not to suggest homogeneity. Earlier in this thread I said that Europeans have the most variety of hair and eye colors, which is not to say that Europeans have the most variety per se (variety of what?). Craniofacial as well as genetic diversity is greater in sub-Saharan African than in Europe.

You wrote:


his bold assertion that women with more European features are more admired than women with fewer or no European features at all because of the increased femininity that comes with having more European ancestry.

I have not made any explicit or implicit assertion along these lines. You are referring to the section of this site that addresses aesthetics in international beauty pageants. This section addresses femininity of appearance, which is not to be confused with actual femininity. There is a page within this section that addresses pseudo-feminization and pseudo-masculinization in facial features, and provides numerous examples of somewhat masculinized white women looking more facially feminine than more overall feminine-looking non-European women because of elements of face shape that add a pseudo-feminine appearance (read: not actual femininity). This, along with the other data cited, leads to the claim that among the most overall feminine-looking women (not the most feminine women), European women are overrepresented. The other [justified] assertion in this section is that non-European faces that are somewhat shifted toward European norms are considered more attractive than average by non-Europeans in general. This assertion is explained in terms of a correlate of aesthetics that involves placement along the overall ancestral-to-derived discriminant, not the absurd notion of “the increased femininity that comes with having more European ancestry.” The specific correlate is a preference for the somewhat more-overall-derived-than-average range. Since Northern Europeans [facially] deviate the most overall from the ancestral condition, a preference for the somewhat more-overall-derived-than-average range will largely correlate with an overall shift toward European norms. Hence the observation that non-Europeans in general find co-ethnics with a face shape somewhat shifted toward European norms more appealing. It is important to understand that the specific correlate of aesthetics considered here is not a preference for Europeanization but a preference for a somewhat more-overall-derived-than-average face shape, instead.

You wrote:


Based on this logic, one would have to conclude that men with European ancestry are more likely to be feminine than men with less European ancestry, which of course is an absurd conclusion, but this is the only conclusion that can be reached based on Mr. Holland’s assertions.

What you represent as my logic is a grotesque distortion of it, as evident from my clarification above. When men favor and disproportionately select feminine women, women favor and disproportionately select masculine men, i.e., men do not become more feminine if there is ongoing selection for feminine women.

You wrote that I am “no visitor to those [non-European] countries.” How do you know this? What do you know of my background and where I have traveled? Don’t jump to conclusions.

You tell us that Iranians are big fans of nose jobs and use them to acquire a more European-looking nose, and then lament that this “is a shame on the part of Iranians who can’t accept their particular nasal configurations,” and then tell us that you, an Iranian, recently had a nose job, which has presumably shifted your nose toward European norms, and expressed regret that even after the nose job your nose is still not as finely chiseled as fine European noses are. Great job!

You wrote:


The simple fact that Mr. Holland was not under the impression, as he so claimed, that Iranians are as much into cosmetic surgery as they are now, is a clear indication that he does not know what beauty is for different people.

In a separate thread, the very first entry at this blog, you claimed that Iran is “the world’s capital for plastic surgery.” I responded by saying that “I was not under the impression that Iranians are heavily into cosmetic surgery, but it is unlikely that they beat Venezuelans.” You responded with the distortion that “Furthermore, the fact that you did not know that Iranians are into plastic surgery is an indiction (sic) that you do not do much research sir on the subjects that you attempt to teach to others.” I responded by saying, “I have not said that I did not know that Iranians were into plastic surgery; I wrote that I was not under the impression that Iranians are heavily into cosmetic surgery after your comment that Iran is the world’s capital for plastic surgery.” You have ignored this exchange and left the statement quoted above, which brings me to the important point, namely that I am tired of your misrepresentations of my arguments, and do not wish to waste my time with someone who has insufficient background to understand the scientific arguments presented here. I will shortly respond to your comments in the other thread, but you are not welcome here. Please do not leave more comments here. Set up your own website and do what you want with it.

May I ask for now where have you travelled to specifically and to what section of the population of those countries did you come across? It is just a question. It is nothing to get so pressured from.

When you are at the point, that you are telling someone that he/she is not welcome to leave comments there is an indication that you are just tired of being exposed by that person and it is getting to you, not that the person is necessarily misrepresenting what you say. You are clearly under pressure as a result of your own inability to keep track of what you say and use everything that you put on your charts/links and such just to avoid discussing the issue at hand and make circular arguments. My comments are just more lengthy but not any more or less unaccepting of what you are saying than what others are posting here. If you are threatened by them and cannot manage to hold your water as a result of them, then it is a character defect on your part, not lack of scientific knowledge or understanding on mine.

As a mature scientist who has claimed who has admitted that he does not deem himself an expert on the subject that he is speaking of, you need to handle this in a mature fashion instead of just coming up with the counterargument that the rest of us do not have enough scientific understanding. At least get people with adequate scientific understanding to support what you say, is that so hard to do??

But I am glad to see that you at least restructure what you say from time to time, knowing that others read these responses to your site, and realize that you better come up with something at least slightly better than circular reasoning.

Oh, and one more thing, because I am new to what you call spamming. Please define it for me since that is what you claim I did. Why is it wrong to post the same thread somewhere else for other people to read to the extent that you removed it and just left it as a link? Is it not fair for others to view my comments first hand and then compare them to your views? Just a question....

Also, you are free not to respond to my comments if you are of me leaving them here. They are for others to view as well and to make judgments about as well. I am not necessarily looking for a response from you at all times.

Aileen You have not heeded my request to stop commenting here. Now I am warning you to NOT LEAVE comments here anymore as Aileen or under another alias. You have ignored my rebuttal to your distortions of my arguments and, instead, accused me of becoming tired of being exposed, unable to keep track of what I say, making circular arguments, avoiding discussing the issue at hand, being threatened by your comments and unable to hold my water, thereby showing a character defect. Talk about chutzpah!

Spamming in your context means posting the same comment in multiple entries; you are supposed to leave a link to your previous comment, as shown above; interested individuals will click on the link to read the comment. Anyway, this is of little relevance to you as far as this site is concerned because I don’t want you to leave more comments here; just don’t spam other blogs. If you decide to come up with a site of your own to refute this site, don’t post a comment with a link to it; email me the link and I will let the readership know about it.

erik--before you assume your assumptions about implants are right, please visit a victoria secret bra with women--as they make the breasts appear to fill out a cup, and add up to 2 cup sizes. also--please talk to an experienced photoshop pro. through out your arguments, and plastic surgery claims you appear to have not enough knowledge on what photoshop does. if you would like examples of before and after, please email me.
the pictures are from within a year. i could email more if yu would like---pertaining to many of the models.

Kristin: It is time to end this discussion since you repeat the same points, which I have already addressed. I told you that I will not bet my money that Alessandra has breast implants, but I have reasons to suspect them. How many times do you have to tell me that padded bras make the bust appear larger? This is obvious; what are they padded for? However, the point remains that the actual breasts do not increase in size; only the bust size in clothing is increased. Even with breast tissue pulled to the side in Pic 1, there is no way Alessandra’s exposed part of her breasts would look as big without photoshopping, breast implants or some combination of the two. I have asked you many times that if Alessandra’s breasts in Pic 2 represent photoshopping, then why did the artist not make them look natural? An artist skilled enough to come up with the bust shown in Pic 2 should not have a difficult time making her breasts look natural. I have already said that the picture you posted does not suggest natural breasts, and her arms are raised, which would make her breasts look smaller. Don’t repeat your points again.

Erik, what bothers me most about your site is that a womans facial and body structure cannot be controlled.

Here, Im now going to stress body issues because this is what the site seems most concentrated on concerning models and the clothing industry. Some women are cone or apple shaped and therefore their bust and waist are simply naturally bigger than their hips. Some women are hour glassed shape and their busts and hips are the same size, with a deep indentation of the waist. Some women are pear shaped and their hips are way bigger than their busts and waists. And some women, like many models seem to be, are rectangular-shaped and their hips and busts are about the same size without such a big indentaion of the waist. Shouldnt clothing models represent all four of these female body structures? Regardless of what most or many men find "most attractive," the clothing is being sold to women. Why should Victoria Secret models represent what is "sexy?" They should represent what all women look like! Models with all body types should be shown so that women with similar body types know whats best for them. does a good job of that. girls. And, they totally skipped the models anyway! :-D

after looking through your list of "attractive" women, erik, i must say i'm very surprised. it seems like at times you don't even stick to your own claims.
doesn't have a broad rib cage?
doesn't have one either?

what exactly does a broad rib cage look like? except for very pear-shaped women, all women have broad rib cages. hour glasse shape women, in essence, have broad rib cages because their bust is the same size as their hips. only, their lower ribs extend in more than a rectangular/tubular shaped woman, such as alessandra.

the funny thing is, i came upon this site while looking for women who don't have broad shoulders because i didn't know if i have them or not. strangely enough, i still don't know the difference between broad shoulders and non-broad ones. i know what square shoulders are, but all shoulders that extend downward look basically the same unless the bust and shoulders extend outward more than the hips, thereby giving a top heavy or cone appearance.

from reading other posts of yours, i get the jist that you don't want to put women down to be an ass. you just want something mainstream that represents what is considered "very feminine." you actually seem to have some science that backs up your claims. i cannot fault you for that.

but i can fault you about some ways you try to get your message across. putting down women for any reason about their appearance is mean. and what might be considered a more selfish reason for yourself: erik, many are not going to listen to you if use insults. i think if you used your scientific evidence and simply put a picture of a woman with more feminine attributes next to one with more masculine attributes, all this will speak for itself. and it will save you a lot of heartache and needless explanations to people who think you're saying women who don't fit a certain quota aren't attractive, deserve to made to feel beautiful, etc..

look at gisele next to sophia loren and it's obvious to anyone which is the more fem. it's like looking at a rock compared to a mountain and saying, "the rock is smaller than the mountain" to saying "gisele is less feminine than sophia."

Allwomenrock: I know that a woman does not have much control over her face and body structure, but this site is not saying that women should conform to a given look. It is about what kind of looks are suitable among models in various setting and contestants in beauty pageants catering to the general public.

You have a point in that fashion models should come in all forms because they are selling to women that come in a variety of shapes. However, there is an element of exclusivity to high-fashion, which is what makes high-end designer clothing highly desirable. Using models with all shapes is not consistent with conveying an impression of exclusivity, which requires a narrow range of looks among high-fashion models. There are a variety of looks consistent with implying exclusivity, and we know that the adolescent-boy central tendency chosen by fashion designers reflects the dominance of homosexual men in the fashion business. If one were to set up a viable heterosexual alternative to the gay-dominated fashion industry, one will have to use a narrow range of looks among models in order to imply exclusivity, and the most appropriate exclusive look will be of feminine beauty with an emphasis on high standards. Speaking of Victoria’s Secret, you will hopefully agree that given the purpose of wearing lingerie, feminine women are more appropriate for lingerie modeling rather than the mostly masculinized women this company uses.

The myshape site is a good idea, but given that it is targeting the general public, it is selling overpriced stuff. You could buy clothes there to fit your body, but if you wanted clothing that most others couldn’t afford and thereby end up conveying an impression of high status or if you are obliged to convey an impression of high status because you are a rich person and move in upper circles, then you will have to patronize top fashion designers, most of whom are gay and use boyish-looking models. In terms of negative societal consequences, feminine beauty cannot undermine health and will at most underminine body esteem to some extent in some women, which the skinny norm among high-fashion models already does. Therefore, you should have less of an objection to the setting up of a feminine beauty standard. Once again, unless this feminine beauty standard conveys a sense of exclusivity [by virtue of having a narrow range and an emphasis on high aesthetic standards], whereas you could sell clothing using feminine and attractive women as models, you will still have to turn to gay fashion designers in order to buy the most exclusive clothing.

Regarding the two women you pointed out, Katie and Lindsey, respectively, the women indeed do not have narrow rib cages, but they also lack large breasts. So why are they in the attractive women section? Whereas a combination of large breasts and narrow rib cage is an ideal with respect to feminine beauty, these features are not strict requirements for feminine beauty. The two women shown are feminine and attractive notwithstanding their shortcomings. Alessandra Ambrosio herself does not have a broad ribcage, but the woman is far from feminine looking. One needs to consider overall looks. You are mistaken about hourglass-shaped women having broad rib cages. In order to have an hourglass figure, a woman needs to have large breasts, sufficiently wide plus rounded hips and a narrow body in between the breasts and hips, i.e., a tiny waist and small rib cage (see example). There is no need for a woman to have a similar bust and hip circumference in order to have an hourglass figure because the hourglass approximation applies to front view only.

If you have not been able to figure out whether you have broad shoulders or not, chances are that they are normal. Regarding “insults,” an accurate description of the looks of many fashion models and beauty pageant contestants may be seen as insulting, but what can I do if I simply must describe the looks in words? It doesn’t help that English is not my native language and I don’t know how to say it better; you should cut me some slack.

Hetero men say anyone is hot because they are told to think so, they are easily swayed by the media and how they think picking out certain women as attractive reflect on their personalities.

Though I'm not sure as many women as is claimed on this site have had breast augmentation, I whoelheartedly agree that there is a masculinization trend. It's not just in physical appearence, but also in attitude. I'm of the opinion that feminity is superior to masculinity in many ways, Western culture has told us for centuries that its the other way around. Feminine traits typically include being intuitive, diplomatic, understanding, etc. These are more sophisticated traits. That does not mean to negate the importance of maculine traits, there just has to be a balance. Like in Tao there is the Yin and Yang and every human being should strive to balance both in themselves. Too much of either means problems.

I think this physical manifestation is a reflection of a more dire issue: the eradication of feminity from American society. Thats what we should be focusing on, the overabundance of Yang energy.

As far as beauty goes, it's definitly subjective. I like this theory about beauty ( that the most attractive faces have proportions closest to the Golden Mean. Also I don't think sexuality is as neatly defined as this site, and the US in general leads us to believe.

Jenn: You need to give heterosexual men more credit than assuming that they blindly believe what they are told is attractive or this site, the product of a heterosexual man, wouldn’t exist. There is a lot that is objective about beauty; this site also critiques the golden ratio as a descriptor of facial beauty. What do you mean by sexuality not being as neatly defined as within this site?

This is one of the most ridiculous sites I have ever come across in the internet. Saying that men that prefer an Alessandra Ambrosio or Adriana Lima over Camille are somehow less heterosexual is a disgrace. How dare you stigmatize men for their preference in WOMEN? "Lifetime exclusive heterosexual men" HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! The audacity of you to think you define other people's sexuality!

By the way, I had loved to see what "Fashion" would be like if straight men ruled the fashion scene for one day... Common sense tells us that we need men in Fashion to be artistic, and that think with their heads, not with their penises.

Bulls**t talks...: Apparently, you do not have an understanding of what male heterosexuality is about. Besides, heterosexual men's johnsons respond to what their minds find artistically appealing in women, which also appeals to most women; see the references in this comment.

I think you are doing a wonderful job. You are very well educated and well informed and appreciate you posting your ideas for the public to access.

Keep up the good work.

Adriana Lima's face masculine????? WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She is one of the most gorgeous FEMMININE FACES EVER!

All the womens faces are horrible, plain,dull as hell. Not pretty. Keira Knightley,Michelle Pfeiffer imo has one of the most beautiful faces ever! Here are some woemn I think are the hottest and most beautiful in the world

This is coming from a straight guy!
If you disagree and tell me they're masculine and not pretty f uck off!,2.jpg

Monica Bellucci

Chris2: What is your comment doing in this entry? Adriana Lima obviously has a masculine element to her face, which you most likely cannot observe because you cannot even see the masculine element in Keira Knightley. Don't tell me to f**k off my own site. You are the one who needs to leave. How many times do you have to tell us that you are a straight guy who likes more masculine women?

Ok, how in the hell is Keira Knightley masculine? She considered one of the msot grogeous woman on earth!

Chris2: I am not saying that Keira looks bad. However, if after going through this site you cannot observe a masculine element in her face, then you shouldn't bother trying to understand it. Keira came up in the comments thread of the first entry; you may want to look up some of her pictures there, read the comments on it and if you feel like leaving a comment on Keira, leave it there, not here.

Camille simply looks like Alessandra would if she didn't work out. There's no definition to her legs in the slightest.

Ali: There are plenty of differences between the two women related to femininity, especially involving skeletal shape that would not be altered by exercise.

Erik, I see your real motive behind creating this site quite clearly. You are trying to push forward your race superiorty agenda. I am sorry that you feel bad to discover that more and more white women are involved in interracial relationships these days in the US. What will happen to the white race? The offsprings of these relationships will no longer be white, what will we do with all these 'non-feminine' women?
You are a sad sad person, Erik. By the way, the Klan is recruiting again, you should join!

> You are trying to push forward your race superiorty agenda.


> I am sorry that you feel bad to discover that more and more white
> women are involved in interracial relationships these days in the US

And what would you call that ?

A "race inferiority agenda" ?
What a genius.

STFU, OJ Simpson.
You are guilty and we know it.

A man that doesn't find Alessandra or Adriana to be beautiful, is either homosexual or asexual. The "women"--and I use the word gratuitously--whom you find attractive are unquestionably unattractive and unambiguously masculine-looking. You are projecting your idiosyncraties onto the majority of men (and women) who can identify beauty instinctively. Your idea of beauty is not beauty in any objective sense. Evidently, you are confused about your own sexuality.

> Your idea of feminine beauty would exclude women who don’t fit in it.

EVERYBODY's idea of feminine beauty would exclude women who ... (blah blah)



1. Having qualities that delight the senses, especially the sense of sight.
2. Excellent; wonderful.



1. Of the highest or finest quality; exceptionally good of its kind.
2. Archaic. Superior.

What a waste of electrons.
Read the friggin' FAQ already, people.

Camille is to Alessandra what etch-a-sketch is to art.

In reference to the post by Erik Holland on August 18, 2006 at 06:35 PM, you contradicted yourself.

First you said, "Both Jessica Alba and Adriana Lima have breast implants, Jessica’s being less obvious."

Then later on you commented below Adriana’s picture and said, "With a broad rib cage and naturally small breasts, Adriana’s physique does not approach a feminine, hourglass figure."

It seems that you can’t differentiate what’s real and fake. Don't base your opinion on speculation and say their breasts are fake.


Camille from Teen Stars Magazine is "feminine" (meaning hyperfeminine) and Camille's face is shapeless, undefined, loose, dough-faced, and has a nose that is almost a pig snout.

Allesandra Ambrosio is "masculinized" (meaning normal to slightly androgynous) and Allesandra's face is highly structured, extremely well-defined, perfectly proportioned, exactly symmetrical, and gorgeously taut.


this site is so pathetic and sad, it makes me laugh. From the looks of it, you are some pathetic, lonely, physically unattractive man that has to make fun of obviously beautiful women to make yourself feel better. Just because you will never be able to get a woman who looks like Alessandra to even spit your way doesn't mean that you need to devote a website to making fun of her and other obviously gorgeous models.
What else amuses me is that you even compare a below average woman, like Camille who looks like a crack-head and needs to get a gym membership to one of the most beautiful women in the world. HAHAHA what is this world coming to...

PS if Camille is the definition of beautiful/feminine and Alessandra/Adriana/Jessia is ugly/masculine, then I would MUCH rather be ugly and masculine.

Whipped Phoney :

Allesandra Ambrosio is “masculinized” (meaning normal to slightly androgynous) and Allesandra’s face is highly structured, extremely well-defined, perfectly proportioned, exactly symmetrical, and gorgeously taut.


Holy manure, Whipped Phoney, you can't tell apart the Glitter from the Real Thing, can you ?

You need an education: take a closer look

Any random chick like Delta Goodrem beats her in the face department.
She SLAPS her, actually.
Go on, slap that biatch:

* slap, slap, slappity-slap *

Good girl =)

And she's not even a model, she's a singer.
But Ambrosius is being paid FOR HER LOOKS

Whipped Phoney :

Allesandra Ambrosio is “masculinized” (meaning normal to slightly androgynous) and Allesandra’s face is highly structured, extremely well-defined, perfectly proportioned, exactly symmetrical, and gorgeously taut.


Holy manure, Whipped Phoney, you can't tell apart the Glitter from the Real Thing, can you ?

You need an education: take a closer look

Any random chick like Delta Goodrem beats her in the face department.
She SLAPS her, actually.
Go on, slap that biotch:

* slap, slap, slappity-slap *

Good girl =)

And she's not even a model, she's a singer.
But Ambrosius is being paid FOR HER LOOKS

Der Wanderer:

Your comparison of Alessandra Ambrosio to Delta Goodrem is dishonest because you compare:
Alessandra Ambrosio in candid photographs
(casual, badly lit, badly shot, non-airbrushed, non-retouched, non-photoshopped, and most importantly, RANDOM)
Delta Goodrem in, with only two exceptions on the whole page, studio photographs
(formally posed, professionally lit, professionally shot, professionally airbrushed, professionally retouched, professionally photoshopped, and most importantly, SELECTED AS THE BEST PICTURES FROM PHOTOSHOOTS THAT LASTED FOR HOURS).

Be honest and compare candids of both or studio shots of both.

Der Wanderer:
Now that you have compared Alessandra Ambrosio and Delta Goodrem in equivalent types of photographs, Alessandra Ambrosio's face is clearly much better structured than Delta Goodrem's. Delta Goodrem is still pretty and certainly more attractive than Camille from Teen Stars Magazine.

Male hormones give a face STRUCTURE, judging from Erik's comparison of "masculinized" women (meaning normal to slightly androgynous) to "feminine" women (meaning hormonally hyperfeminine). Structure is what is missing from the female faces Erik calls attractive; Camille from Teen Stars Magazine has a face that is almost amorphous and by the time she's 35 her face will be so shapeless that it will look like a face painted on a balloon.

Whipped Phoney :

Alessandra Ambrosio’s face is clearly much better structured than Delta Goodrem’s

Much better "structured"

Define "structure" cause I don't think we speak the same language.

For instance: you're a Miranda Kerr advocate:

But she looks like a Swiss Cheese Ball !

Hunnie :

- You look like shit today, I mean ... unstructured

- * SLAP *

- :(

Der Wanderer:
"Define “structure” cause I don’t think we speak the same language."

By "structure" I mean (and I may add to this definition when I'm not sleepy) a strong bone structure causing a very clear shape. Alessandra's pretty good structure is very visible in your most recent post's third photograph; click on it for a larger size and you will see that each of her facial features stands out distinctly and separately from the others, without any particular one being overly strong so as to overwhelm her whole face.

Delta Goodrem's brow bone, nose, cheekbones, and jaw bone do not stand out as much as Alessandra Ambrosio's do. Camille from Teen Stars Magazine has brow bone, nose, cheekbones and jaw bone that stand out little or not at all. Camille is going to age very badly because, as the saying goes, all that's left at midlife is bone structure, and Camille has very weak bone structure. Her face is going to become a ball of dough.

"For instance: you’re a Miranda Kerr advocate: But she looks like a Swiss Cheese Ball !"

I never said I am a "Miranda Kerr advocate". All I ever said about Miranda Kerr is that contrary to plastic surgeons' self-serving propaganda, her nose is not deformed and looks fine. I never said a word about any part of her other than her nose.

i always thought she was masculine, but you must HEAR this:

and notice her flat ass, too

and next, adriana which is a bit more feminine than alessandra, she has very masculine voice, too:

karolina surprisingly has a girlish voice.

all women are beautiful, some more than others
i seem to like women and you seem not to or more so you seem to like children.
its not your fault but you should just be happy being who you are and not question other peoples outlooks.

AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO NOTICED THE DISGUSTING PIMPLES ON THAT GIRLS BUTT CRACK?????? That's really gross and not what I want any woman's rear to look like. It's the girl that is being compared to the beautifully feminine Alessandra Ambrosio at the top.

I don't know man, that other girl looks too young and childish. It seems like Erik Holland or whoever it was that posted this blog is a possible pedophile. I did read some where that scandinavians and a lot of east asians like the Japs, tend to desire women who like they're 12 years old.

Having been with many different curvy women (nothing less that a C cup). I can say that if getting with Alessandra makes me a homosexual then I'd be the happiest homosexual on this planet.

PS - Plenty of small skinny 90lb women can have real boobs. Maybe get out from behind your desk and meet some.

Thanks Love

PSS - With America full of “homosexual” model chasers out there, Mr. Erik Holland should have no problem mopping up all the fat/nonathletic females, I mean “voluptuous” women. After all we are an obese nation.

Ok, well I can see how some of the models look like young adolescent boys,however, in their case, it's probably due to low body fat, which tends to make the jawline more angled. Maybe Giselle doesn't have an hourglass waist and hips, but she is in excellent shape and in her photos she can give sensual appeal. The comment of Alessandra looking like a drag queen confuses me. For one, she has real hair; not some shocking coloured wig. Her makeup is minimal but classy. I can't help but notice the picture of the girl next to Alessandra. She looks like a girl too, but her look is more unnatural and plastic. Firstly, she needs to quick plucking her eyebrows. This would make her look more feminine. It's the trannys that over-pluck. Secondly, purchase a bathing suit that would correctly fit and flatter her breasts and hips. The bright pink suit she has on doesn't go well with her skin tone, and makes her waist look wider (thus creating a maculine look). I agree with the yellow staining of her teeth, which is a more mascline quality. She should visit a dentist for that issue. Her body over all needs toning especially upper thighs and buttocks... she has a "double-cheek" thing going. She needs to build up at least an inch on her calves to balance her frame, and her stomach looks a little pudgy. She needs to pose with more confidence. she looks dull and vague. My last comment is really noting the acne on her butt. It looks like a rash or really bad hygiene. Get rid of it!! Besides, the writer of this huge abasement is missing the true meaning of beauty. It's sensuality from deep within the eyes; soft, unblemished skin, unique but impacting personality, which can be found anywhere, if you look for it. Please take some self-esteem classes!

dude what the fuck every model i search for u have a gay thing tryn 2 say that the hottest women on earth r 'masculine'. youve either gotta b retarded gay or som fat chick who wants 2 make herself feel hotter because that thing u were comparing allesandra 2 is fuckin ugly. just give up u rnt changin any1s mind. and seriously how much time u spend typen this shit

Just a few questions,

You say that Allesandra Ambrosia would have looked masculine as a 6-year-old, just as she looks masculine in adulthood. However...

Q1. Is it possible for a female to be masculine looking as a child due to elevated prenatal testosterone exposure and to have a low digit ratio, but then to develop a feminine physique and feminine face in their teens due to above average estrogen levels and low androgens at puberty?

In the above scenario, would some masculine features likely be retained in the adult woman from their postnatal exposure to above average androgens? and would these features likely be an aesthetic problem?

Q2. Is it possible for a feminine european woman to possess a low digit ratio as an adult, similar to that in men?

Q3. Supposing a woman possessed both high estrogens AND high androgens during puberty, what would their appearance tend to be like? Would they be likely to be considered attractive by the average lifetime heterosexual man?

Q4. Voice pitch, does it tend to be more culturally/socially influenced, or physiologically determined? Is femininity a strong correlate with a high voice pitch.


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