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Sun, 07/30/2006 - 18:47 Helen Masculinization in the 2005 Miss World beauty pageant contestants

You say many times throughout this website that you are representing the 'general consensus among men' with regards to beauty in women. I dont believe this to be very true. I have shown this particular page to many of my male friends who think that at least 75% of the women above are devastatingly beautiful. It seems to me that this site is based on your opinion and not the opinion you put it...most 'normal' men.

Sun, 07/30/2006 - 13:46 Erik The 2006 Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue

Helen: The nature of this site does not reflect closed-mindedness but heterosexuality instead. I was born with a liking for feminine beauty; I just can’t help it. Whereas not all people have the same tastes, there is broad agreement in the general population when it comes to what constitutes physical attractiveness, and this site reflects the broad consensus, as per numerous studies cited elsewhere within this site.

If you read carefully, you will note that this site is not about how women in general are supposed to look like. This site is partly about how models and beauty pageant contestants should look like in situations where masculinized women are not required. This entry focuses on a publication targeting heterosexual men, and it is appropriate that the choice of models therein reflect the central tendency of aesthetic preferences among heterosexual men.

Sun, 07/30/2006 - 13:15 Helen The 2006 Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue

To me, this website seems to have been written by a bunch of closed-minded boys. This site is just as bad as those trashy gossip magazines and the fashion industry promoting thin bodies and dieting. People are all different and everybody has different tastes. I know many of my male friends find Kate Moss, for example, extremely sexy and attractive, others prefer more rounded figures. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You say many times "a model should be feminine and attractive." Women shouldn't have to be anything. This entire website is written from an incredibly shallow point of view. There is so much pressure for women to conform to so-called 'ideals' and seeing yet another website about 'perfection' in a woman makes me very angry.

Sat, 07/29/2006 - 16:53 Erik The 2006 Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue

Tany: Nothing is wrong with me, but something is wrong with your reading comprehension. I have not said that a man who prefers masculinized looks in women is either gay or mentally abnormal. Gays are not the only people who are not lifetime-exclusive heterosexuals; the latter group includes bisexuals, too, and most people falling into this category mostly lean toward heterosexuality in adulthood. Men who like masculinized women are obvious candidates for either not being lifetime-exclusive heterosexuals or having narrowly missed nonheterosexuality. The citations about increased psychiatric morbidity among nonheterosexuals associate a preference for masculinized looks in women with brain abnormalities. This association is of a statistical nature and is not guaranteed. I have specified that whereas every single incidence of a preference for masculinized features in women cannot be called abnormal, given the association of the latter with mental abnormality, this preference is appropriately designated anomalous and is abnormal in a number of cases.

Some women with masculinized features do indeed look like eunuchs, and I don’t see why you have a problem with calling a spade a spade.

As far as unfeminine equating to unattractive goes, there is a threshold of masculinization beyond which most if not all people will find the woman unattractive. This threshold is not the same for all people, but for most people, high-fashion models cross this threshold, on average.

If the aesthetic preference of the majority for women with above average femininity is a mere opinion, then it is an opinion just like the sky looking blue in the daytime to most people is a mere opinion.

As far as the promotion of high aesthetic standards goes, this is only for models, not for all women as you have stated, and there is nothing ridiculous about feminine standards. Most women, like most men, aesthetically prefer feminine looks in women, and one should not be deluded into believing that the looks of high-fashion models are selected taking into consideration that they will be catering to female clients. Anyway, this entry is about a publication that caters to heterosexual men, yet features mostly masculinized women.

Look at it this way. If homosexuals want to have magazines, fashion shows and beauty pageants featuring masculinized women, including women who look like male transvestites, male-to-female transsexuals and eunuchs, they can very well have these things, but there should be at least one prominent mainstream outlet where feminine beauty is appreciated for those who are enamored by feminine beauty. There is no such thing at present, and this is the reason why this educational site is needed.

Fri, 07/28/2006 - 17:18 Tany The 2006 Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue

What on Earth is wrong with you? Your FAQ page pretty much states that if a man prefers "masculine" looks, he either A) is gay, or B) has something wrong with him mentally. Why is it so hard for you to believe that a man may *gasp* find something attractive that you, personally, do not? A man doesn't need to have something wrong with him mentally [or be homosexual] for him to have a different opinion on women.

There have been SEVERAL instances on your site where you've referred to women with "masculine" features as eunuchs.

In your FAQ, you also state you are attempting to "[increase] the prevalence of feminine and attractive women among top-ranked models and beauty pageant contestants." which leads one to presume you truly believe non-feminine = unnatractive.

Even if the entire population of this country thinks "feminine" looks on females are more attractive, it is still, and always will be, an opinion. It may be an opinion shared by a vast group of people, but it's an opinion nonetheless.

"This site also intends to promote high aesthetic standards among female models in general."
Like they don't have ENOUGH high standards to meet? I think the last thing models [that are usually intended to attract WOMEN to buy the clothing, by the way] is a man putting more ridiculous "standards" that he believes all women should meet because he believes anyone who goes against his opinion is wrong.

Fri, 07/28/2006 - 02:30 Erik The 2006 Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue

Tany: What constitutes attractiveness is far from mere opinion when broad agreement in the general population has been amply documented (see FAQ). Nowhere have I said that unfeminine women are ugly or eunuchoid. The masculine women shown on this page are not ugly, but some do not have the faces of women. Besides, I do not know how you have managed to come across heterosexual men who do not appreciate feminine curves.

Thu, 07/27/2006 - 14:23 Tany The 2006 Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue

"My desire is that top ranked female models, especially beauty pageant contestants and models catering to heterosexual men in mainstream publications should be feminine and attractive."

You should realize, then, that "attractive" is PURELY an opinion. Most heterosexual men that /I/ know do NOT like "feminine" women, as you define it. I know there are men out there that like "feminine" women, but you don't need to be pushing this shit like it's fact that if a woman isn't "feminine" she's ugly and/or a eunuch.

Wed, 07/19/2006 - 00:12 Matewan Backside comparison: Daria Werbowy vs. Cindy D.


I'm a feminist and I appreciate this site very much. Being non-white in the United States (Native American) I have seen and experienced first hand many of the beauty factors you describe so well on this site. Even my traditional Navajo grandparents who spoke no English and lived in a remote location deep on the reservation would make loud their preferences to the phenotypes you describe for their grandchildren. They were very disappointed that my mother (who is a proud possess of a Navajo version of the "beauty mask") did not pass her looks on to her daughters, who all look like their Sioux, Plains Indian Northern father. We had a fashion show (in the desert!) and my sisters and are, who are considered pretty in the mainstream American suburban world and no problem dating and finding successful, handsome white husbands, were not chose because we didn't look like our cousins (who look like my mother). Even though my dad was and is a wonderful father, and my cousin's dads were deadbeat drunks, they did not value him because he looked more like Sitting Bull (his ancestor) than like their Navajo ideal.

Taking apart they whole beauty construct is cool to see. I think some folks have difficulty dealing with male sexuality. I also think many heterosexual young men buy into this high fashion beauty ideal, because it is so well packaged.

I have to admit that I myself have a preference for the stronger features of super models. The jawline and jutting cheekbones. Certainly, as a Native American, my cheekbones are some of my dearest possessions.

Beauty is, however, more than just body measurements. I saw in my high school, that a Filipino girl was more highly regarded as beautiful than her blonde, perfect side kick. Her nose was wider, she was shorter, but when she looked up and smiled their was something that outshone her Euro-American friend. And everyone (mostly white adolescent males) saw that and pursued her.

Sun, 07/16/2006 - 00:38 Erik Welcome!

Jade: Why don’t you properly read my replies to you? I have previously noted that exclusively gay individuals will not date women and also that I am not saying that all men who date high-fashion models are gay. Haven’t you heard of bisexual men? Besides, self-identified gays are not necessarily exclusively gay, and only a small proportion of them are lifetime-exclusive homosexuals. What I was trying to convey to you above was that if a woman looks masculine then she is at risk for attracting nonheterosexual men. This risk is greater for upper class masculine women. I don’t know what your status among fashion models is, but if you are upper class and rich, it is highly unlikely that you date men below your socioeconomic status. Now, upper class or rich men have their choice of women, and those among them who go after masculinized women would be strong candidates for either being nonheterosexual or having narrowly escaped nonheterosexuality during development. Therefore, be warned.

I don’t watch Oprah and hence cannot comment on the femininity of the women on this show that have been infected by men who have sex with men. You mention the example of Mick Jagger having the hots for Caroline Winberg, but among high-fashion models, Caroline has below average masculinity. If Mick Jagger had a preference for the likes of Adina Fohlin, then one could be almost certain that he is either not exclusively heterosexual or has narrowly escaped nonheterosexuality.

Sat, 07/15/2006 - 11:47 jade Welcome!

and about your story
that has happend to feminine women alot to
havnt you ver watched oprah
and thast one person you cant base every
guy that likes fashion models on that story

Fri, 07/14/2006 - 14:12 jade Welcome!

oh my fucking god
are you kidding me if a guy likes the look of fashion models he is gay
so i guess mc jagger is gay becuase he wanted to meet caroline winburg and kept phoning her trying to hook up with her
so hes ay i bet then
if your gay your not gunna have sex with a masculinized women your gunna date a man

Mon, 07/10/2006 - 11:07 Erik Is it possible to objectively compare the attractiveness of women from different populations?

John: Sorry about Fig 6d; it was never uploaded, but it shows now. I put the link to this section within the main navigation column now that several people have requested that I do so.

Sun, 07/09/2006 - 21:49 John Is it possible to objectively compare the attractiveness of women from different populations?

I've greatly enjoyed reading this site, and found it very informative. Personally, I find this section the most interesting.

You've dug up some fascinating studies and images, and I agree with the commentator above, that the link here should be emphasised more, since I believe many others will also find this of interest.

Incidentally, on this page, Fig. 6d does not display properly:

Anyway, keep up the good work, and I look forward to seeing more in the future, John.

Sun, 07/09/2006 - 18:35 Erik The 2006 Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue

Jon: You may prefer a slender woman, but if you are a lifetime-exclusive heterosexual man, it is unlikely that you find broad shoulders and other masculinized skeletal features -- disproportionately seen in high-fashion models -- attractive in women.

I have addressed your notion elsewhere. The majority of women assign higher aesthetic appeal to above average feminine looks in women, and most people, including most young women, find the typical skinniness of high-fashion models socially unacceptable. Therefore, there is nothing marketable about the typical looks of high-fashion models. If unattainability of appearance is a criterion, then as I have explained toward the bottom of the "skinny fashion models" page, a tall and feminine appearance with a healthy amount of body fat is less attainable than tall, masculine and skinny looks. It is simply the case that gays dominate the top ranks of the fashion business and have a broad license as to what kind of models they can use given the high desirability for designer clothing. Gay fashion designers select looks they find appealing, the central tendency of which is to approximate the looks of adolescent boys.

Sun, 07/09/2006 - 17:41 Erik The 2006 Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue

CT: I am well aware of the Dove campaign and have thought about addressing it at this site; I might do so now that you have mentioned it. Dove is addressing a different problem than the one I am addressing. Dove is addressing the body image problem whereas I am addressing the aesthetics problem. My desire is that top ranked female models, especially beauty pageant contestants and models catering to heterosexual men in mainstream publications should be feminine and attractive. If this were realized, the body image problem that a number of girls and young women experience will remain, though it would be of a different kind, but they will at least not be prompted to indulge in negative health behaviors such as unnecessary dieting and excessive exercise in order to acquire the physique of the feminine models since dieting and exercise are not going to make one look feminine and attractive.

This site is not about how women should look like; it is about aesthetics and the looks of models and beauty pageant contestants. Regarding the glamour models shown, many of them do not engage in sexual activities on camera and are thereby best not referred to as porn stars. Hence, the generic label of glamour model is reasonable. Besides, a number of glamour models/porn stars are not feminine and attractive, i.e., it is far from the case that I think that women/models should look like glamour models/porn stars. If this site were successful in the long run, then there will be plenty of mainstream models to choose from when it comes to illustrating what feminine and attractive looks in women are about.

Sun, 07/09/2006 - 17:30 Jon The 2006 Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue

Just a quick thought from a male point of view….

Sure, runway models are not representative of the average woman….never have been, never will be. Why?

Although it sounds far more sensational to blame the ‘homosexual fashion industry’ and their predilection towards young boys, the truth is simply this – It’s a marketing strategy, and a damn successful one, at that.

Think of it like this – a fashion company, like most other companies, is in business to sell something.

In order to sell something, you have to create demand. Enter the ‘fashion model’.

She possesses uncommon features, unrealistic proportions, and unattainable status….basically, she’s nothing like the average woman. She’s skinnier, prettier, taller, more refined, more glamorous…. Everything that an average woman wants to be, she IS, and much more.

So when that ‘model’ wears a certain kind of clothes, or is seen in a certain pair of shoes…it doesn’t take a marketing genius to predict what the average woman does in this situation… she buys the same clothes and shoes. It’s a simple and powerful marketing principle – we tend to emulate those who we perceive to be superior.

I’m not condoning, approving, or defending…just info.

On a more personal note, I’m a heterosexual male, and I’ve always been partial to very petite/slender women. Just because a woman isn’t spilling out of a huge bra and shaking a big ass doesn’t mean she isn’t sexy or desirable. I’d take the skinny waif over the buxom blonde any day.

Sun, 07/09/2006 - 17:07 Erik The 2006 Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue

C.M.S.: Anita Dark isn’t very feminine, but she is more feminine than Yesica, and although she is 31 now and about 11 years older than Yesica, she still looks overall better than Yesica. Matched for age, Yesica would be no match for Anita -- from the perspective of lifetime-exclusive heterosexual men. Finding pictures of Anita Dark when she was around 20 is not an easy task, but as the following comparison shows, a 20- to 21-year-old Anita Dark was much more feminine-looking than Yesica in her late teens.

Yesica Toscanini and Anita Dark

The following pictures of Yesica Toscanini show her masculinized facial features, and she is going to look much manlier ten years from now.

Yesica Toscanini

The following pictures of a younger Anita Dark show facial features unambiguously more feminine than those of Yesica.

Anita Perger, Anita Dark, Shelby Kane

Sun, 07/09/2006 - 14:13 CT The 2006 Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue

You have a very interesting website, but your central idea seems to be that porn stars (gee, excuse me, "glamour models") represent what women "should" look like. Like if anyone doesn't have a tiny waist, full boobs, and a shapely butt, they are a broken, masculinized, eunuch-looking freako.

I don't want to get into a big argument or anything, so let me just say that I disagree. Women come in all shapes, sizes, and hormone levels. For a better example of "normal women", please avoid the porn stars and look at the Dove Campaign for Real Beauty.

Sat, 07/08/2006 - 21:59 C. M. S. The 2006 Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue

To me, Yesica Toscanini seems to have a less masuline face than Anita Dark. Her cheekbones are the highest on the site, giving her the looks of a transvestite that has had a nose job and plucks their eyebrows too much.

Wed, 07/05/2006 - 07:31 Erik Welcome!

Jade: Of all features you could have mentioned, you mention cheekbones and lip thickness. Of course heterosexual men prefer lips in women that are somewhat fuller compared to average, but I have not deliberately selected thin-lipped women in the attractive women section; these women have been selected for overall appearance, and since they are human, they are bound to have imperfections, including thin lips in some cases, which are nevertheless in the population-typical range. Regarding high cheekbones, some heterosexual men may be into high cheekbones, but lifetime-exclusive heterosexual men are not into overall masculine-looking women. Given that you have done fashion modeling, I wouldn’t be surprised that you know of several men who would prefer fashion models to feminine and attractive women, but what is the sexual orientation of these men? Consider it a friendly warning that you had better beware of the men you date if you look masculine or you may end up with the fate of Bridget B., as reported by Adam Liptak in the July 4, 2006 edition of the NY Times:


Bridget B. and John B., as they are known in court papers, started dating in 1998 and married in July 2000. Bridget said that John told her he was healthy and monogamous and that he urged her to have unprotected sex with him. In October 2000, though, she tested positive for H.I.V., the virus that causes AIDS, as did he.

Bridget later learned, her lawsuit says, that John had had sex with men before and during their marriage. She seeks compensation for what she says was John's infliction of emotional distress and fraud.

The California Supreme Court ruled that the likes of Bridget B. can sue the person who transmitted the AIDS virus to her, even if this person did not do so knowingly. Of course, you would much rather not get infected with HIV in the first place.

You have again brought up Eastern European women. Why do you believe that these women are masculine? As I have said above, I have featured several Eastern European women in the attractive women section. Look at this woman from Ukraine and tell me if she looks masculine. I have been to Russia and saw plenty of feminine women there.

Wed, 07/05/2006 - 00:19 mallory Welcome!

you're a real dumbshit.
i'm happy i stumbled upon this site so i could let you know.

Tue, 07/04/2006 - 01:40 jade Welcome!

ok your being a fucking idiot
a lot more men that i know woulld rather date
a girl with high cheek bones and full lips
than one of those girls you fetured as atractyive women
becuase they were far from atractive im sorry but hey were fucking ugly
so your saying a guy would never date a eastern europien women
then basically
and seriously the fwomen you put on atractive women are fucking gross
and im pretty sure a lot of guys would agree wiht me

Mon, 07/03/2006 - 07:23 Erik Welcome!

Jade: I am not saying that any man who dates a high-fashion model is gay; exclusively gay individuals will not date women, but if you are a masculine-looking woman, you are at risk for attracting men who are into the down-low lifestyle. I have already answered your question about straight fashion designers; there are few of them in the fashion business, especially in dominant positions, and they have to comply with the status quo. I don’t see why you don’t get it. Ask yourself what is the point of being a heterosexual man if one is to find masculinized women appealing? Why do you want to see my picture when, as you have stated previously, you have already seen it and found me to be ugly?

Mon, 07/03/2006 - 02:18 dark Guinevere: attractive slender nude


Mon, 07/03/2006 - 01:05 jade Welcome!

k your so fucking dumb
your basically saying any guy who datses a model is gay
you are such a moron
and you still havnt answered my question
why do straight fashion designers have "masculine" models
and id like to see a picture of you
im usre you look like agirl